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Why does God allow his people to suffer? What purpose is there is pain? We have Part Two of my conversation with Norm Wielsch, where we talk about these very important topics. What is one of the things that God hates?(It’s not what you think.) We talk about another book he has in the works about the question of suffering. You will be encouraged and lifted up listening to Norm’s experiences of loss and recovery.
Connect with Norm and purchase his books on his website:
Healing A Broken Heart: A Christ-Centered healing of Trauma
God’s Purpose in Pain: Why Does God Allow Suffering
https://www.christ-centeredhealing.com/
Bio:
Norm Wielsch was a law enforcement officer for over 25 years. Sixteen of those as an undercover narcotic agent. He has experienced many traumatic incidents during his career. In 1998 he was diagnosed with an incurable neuro-muscular disease that caused the loss of feeling, mobility, and strength in his hands and feet. After over 30 surgeries he became addicted to opioids.
He was diagnosed with PTSD. Then his daughter was diagnosed with a serious illness with a poor prognosis. Due to his poor coping mechanisms that are against God’s moral standards, Norm made a series of poor decisions that landed him in federal prison with a 14 year sentence.
It was during this most intense trial of his life, with the reality that he was going to go to prison for a long time, that he answered God’s calling. Norm had been an agnostic all of his life, but he knew that God was calling him to minister to those people who were suffering from trauma, especially first responders.
While in prison, he obtained a Master’s Degree in Theology & Counseling, a Doctorate in Christian Counseling, and a California Drug and Alcohol Counseling Certificate. He is currently working at a Men’s Residential Treatment facility as a Registered Alcohol and drug Counselor and Pastoral Care Chaplain.
While in prison, Norm counseled many inmates with a variety of issues, preached God’s word in the chapel, taught Christian classes, and led bible studies.
Norm often speaks to those who are suffering from traumatic experiences including churches and addiction ministries.
Norm has a Master’s Degree in Law Enforcement Management. He achieved the rank of commander prior to his arrest and has over ten commendations for outstanding service. Norm Wielsch is an expert in law enforcement tactics including: narcotic, enforcement, addictions and influence, criminal investigations, traffic collisions, pursuit driving, high risk search warrant service, report writing, PTSD, and the police culture.
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Norm Wielsch Part Two
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer, songwriter, speaker, and domestic violence advocate, Diana Winkler. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help.[00:00:26] Now, here is Diana.[00:00:33] Everybody, thank you for coming back to part two of my conversation with Norm Wielsch. He’s been talking about his new book. He’s been on the show before episode 35, as I explained last time, and I’m not going to go into too much review, but if you have not listened to Part one of this interview, please go [00:01:00] back and listen to that. And also episode 35 Where he tells his full story so i’m not going to Repeat anything, but we’re just going to jump right in to the rest of Norm’s fantastic story.[00:01:16] Here’s Norm Wielsch.[00:01:18] And you have so many marriages like this that happen that, that the kids are in the middle. And then what happens is these kids get, because they emulate what the parents do.[00:01:29] And then they put themselves into bad relationships. They don’t learn how to deal as adults with, in some way within a relationship, right? They don’t learn to work things out. They just say, okay, get out. And I hate you, so, so this is a thing that should be taught. In schools. In every year up until I graduate, so they know how to deal with each other.[00:01:52] Right. Cause really we’ve lost that in this society. Everybody hates everybody. And, it’s all for me and I’ll do whatever I [00:02:00] have to get ahead. And it’s just not the way that everything was designed to be. You were right. And I really love that story that you shared it. So. Realistic to what people are going through and suffering.[00:02:16] I’m sure there’s many folks going through a similar thing, what you described with your clients. Just out of curiosity, which states are you licensed in? Well, I’m working at the facility, so because I do Christian counseling, I’m not allowed to do Christian counseling because this is not a faith based organization.[00:02:40] So I worked there as a counselor, so I’m registered through the state of California and yeah, but I’m not allowed to actually talk about God there, but I can talk about how God changed my life, because it’s paid for by the hospital system and insurances, they don’t want us [00:03:00] trying to, convert people and that’s okay.[00:03:02] But at least I can say, Hey, this is what happened to me. Every once in a while, once they leave. You know that they’ll come to me and ask me more about, about God and faith and stuff. And that’s where I can talk to them more. And the churches too, I don’t need a license here in California to, but I don’t have a shingle on the door, so I don’t like.[00:03:22] Advertise, come to me for Christian counseling. If somebody from the church says, Hey, can I talk, or can we talk? And or even at my work, if when I’m a chaplain, a lot of truck drivers and workplace warehouse people, if they want to talk, we can talk, but no, I don’t do it as a business.[00:03:39] I don’t charge anything for that. I think that’s also beneficial if you’re not charging, then, the financial aspect is out of the way, that you can help people that, they don’t have money or insurance that will pay for counseling sessions at all. Yeah, but[00:03:56] I see it partly as service. I’m lucky where I have a [00:04:00] retirement and a pension from my old job, so I’m okay financially. So I see it as a way to pay back for the stupid things I did. And again, that’s the. Rita boy, it’s been years and years. I still got a tiny little bit of that there, but I figure every time I do something nice for somebody.[00:04:21] It chips away at that. And it works for me. We’re never going to be a hundred percent healed this side of eternity brother, until we cross over to the other side. So I think all of us have, a little guilt about some things we’ve done in the past, but. We are moving forward and, giving back and trying to serve God the way that He’s gifted us and has called us to do.[00:04:45] So I’m grateful for that. I wanted to ask about your daughter, because last time she had some health conditions. Let’s see. I forget what it was. Oh, liver [00:05:00] tumors. She’s doing great. I don’t know if I told this, I forget if I told the story back then, but she was healed miraculously.[00:05:10] The doctor’s Can’t even explain how it happened, so she’s still, excuse me. I’m sorry. She’s still doing great. And she’s healthy. My other daughter’s healthy. My stepkids are healthy. My grandkids, I’ve got eight grandkids now and praise God. They’re all healthy. So I’ve been blessed so much.[00:05:28] Oh, I’m so glad to hear that. And did you mention that your wife helps you with your ministry now? Is she was, but now she opened her own business. She actually hand knits custom beanies. So she’s knitting all day and she makes kids jackets. Like the jean jackets, but with patches on them and stuff.[00:05:48] So, but she does help me when we do the Wednesday night groups. I haven’t done it cause I’m working swing shift now. So I haven’t done it in about maybe six months, but she does help me through the thing. [00:06:00] And what’s good. Her part of it. Is she can tell the people that how, what she was going through during this time, because again, our default setting is selfishness, right?[00:06:13] We don’t understand that hurt people, right? And I was hurting her. I was hurting my kids and not knowing it because I was so consumed in my own world of woe is me. I got this disease, my, my feet, this and that, and, I’m getting older and all this stuff. So, so she can say, listen, if you’re going through this.[00:06:35] You have to think of your family, because your family is being affected by it, whether you believe it or not. And I think she’s made great great strides in helping people realize that, maybe I should work on my past, because a lot of people seem to be comfortable in their trauma. In other words, they almost use it as a crutch or a, and I don’t mean this in a bad way, but a way to [00:07:00] connect with people, well, yeah, this and this happened to me when I, and then people hug them and show them attention and things.[00:07:06] Yeah. But still they end up hurting others through the behavior changes that occur through trauma. And God heals. I, there is hope no matter what you’ve been through, you’ll never forget what happened. It’ll always be there, but it doesn’t have to control your life, and we can get to a point where you can go, okay, that wasn’t right.[00:07:32] That wasn’t fair. Okay. I don’t understand why God allowed it. But I might find out later in my life why these things happened, and I can move forward on it. If you forgive, you stop that judgment, especially against parents, right? Because the Bible says if you don’t honor your parents, things will not go well with you.[00:07:53] It says that several times in Deuteronomy. So even most parents don’t even deserve to be honored. [00:08:00] But we at least got to give them the respect that they’re our parents doesn’t mean you need to have a relationship with them. It just means that you have to release all that pent up resentment and anger and unforgiveness and just release it.[00:08:14] And that there is honoring your parents and break that cycle. Right? That’s so important because trauma. is a cycle that goes through generations often. Oh, yes. It’s very common. Yeah, I, I do talk about, when we’re abused, part of healing is walking through that pain and finding out , what it was and how it happened and mourning that in, grieving over that.[00:08:40] Like the Bible talks a lot about lamentation. Talks about grieving what has happened to you and then, you have to move forward with your life and leave all that behind.[00:08:55] Jesus has plans for us. This is not the [00:09:00] end. Our life’s not over. It is going to get better. And if we moved forward, then we can help others who have gone through the same thing that we have, right? Like what you’re doing, right? Well said. Yes. Yeah. So the rest of the book just talks about emotions, right? Well, what we believe the emotions were created for the positive, the negative how to manage them and and then we go through that and then we go through the principles, which is judgment and all these, the forgiveness, judgment, the things that block our blessings, which are unforgiveness, again, judgment and unrepentant sin.[00:09:39] And and then we talked about how to walk, what the Holy Spirit’s role is in it and how to walk in the Holy Spirit. And so it’s a thick book. Unfortunately, it’s like 450 pages, but it’s all in one book. My publisher goes, well, we need to make this a three book thing. Well, but it’s not, I [00:10:00] said, it wasn’t going to work because if you only bought one, you wouldn’t get the whole thing.[00:10:05] Right. So he begrudgingly allowed it to be one book and I’m glad it did, but a lot of people complain about it because it’s big, but if you want to work on it and you want to heal, you got to read it. Yeah. It’s probably chock full of everything that you need to that place of healing and move on with your life.[00:10:26] So 400 pages is a small price to pay. I think so. Yeah. Yeah, a manual, a textbook. Now you mentioned that you have another book coming in the works. Tell us about that. So I’m really proud. I’m proud of that one too, but I’m proud of this one. I try to answer the age old question of why God allows suffering, right?[00:10:51] Because this is why I never believed in God, because when I, as a police officer, you see these horrible things happen every day. Okay. And I thought to myself, [00:11:00] if there’s a kind, loving God, what’s going on here? Why isn’t He involved in this children’s suffering? Like we talked about earlier, women’s suffering.[00:11:09] Why? And that was the block, the thing that blocked me from seeing God’s kindness until He healed my daughter. When I saw that, I go, okay. So what I did is I just started studying and studying the Bible. And okay, what does the Bible say? And there’s really, there’s seven different things that the Bible says about suffering, right.[00:11:30] Of why he allows to suffer. So one of them would is training, right. So, and I could relate this to my life and maybe you can too, but I’ve been through stuff that, yeah, I probably shouldn’t have seen. I almost got killed in, in, in different things. And, but what it has done by the experience and walking through it, what it has done is allowed me to be more empathetic, more compassionate, and someone [00:12:00] who wants to help others.[00:12:01] Right. So it’s trained me to be a better person. Right. How humbling, and we go through how God humbled the Jews through all the hundreds of years that they were walking through the desert. So we need to be humble because God, one of the biggest things, there’s six different things that God hates, and this is God hates.[00:12:23] It says right in the Bible. And the first one is haughtiness or What’s the word I’m looking for? Opposite of humble. Right, there it is. I’m sorry, I forgot the word pride. But pridefulness, that’s the number one thing. Not killing, not cheating, pride.[00:12:38] That’s the number one thing, because we’re so prideful that we can’t accept God, right? So, so those are like two of the things. So, when we look at stuff that’s happening to us, and then I try to explain, well, why do bad things happen to good people? Well, what’s bad? What’s the definition of bad?[00:12:57] What’s the definition of good? It’s different for everybody, [00:13:00] right? So, Some people would say winning the lottery is great, right? But I know others that say that was the worst thing that ever happened to them. Right. So we got to define good and bad. And how does the Bible define, how does society define it?[00:13:15] So I try to rationalize things through there. To show a different perspective of God’s perspective of the earth. Right. And try to explain that, he could fix everything. Right. But what he would have to do is he would have to make us like robots, right? So evil people exist. And unfortunately, because evil people exist, a lot of damage occurs.[00:13:40] Collateral damage occurs because of the stupid things they do. Right. Right. So he could actually make that evil person good, but then wouldn’t that be against his own will, right? So, there’s a lot of things to think about in there, and I believe that when you understand who God is, and I’m [00:14:00] talking about Jesus, God, Jesus Holy Spirit, and you understand how He sees us, whole life will change.[00:14:07] And when I finally saw that, I finally experienced the peace and joy in my life. I was never really content. I was never really happy. I had a good life, right? I had kids, a wife. I was making good money. But I wasn’t happy. Right? And happy is another term that we could argue about.[00:14:26] I didn’t have the joy in my life. . Yeah. Right. So, and when all this happened, even though I spent eight years in prison and now I’m considered a criminal. I can’t vote, I can’t have a gun. But I got this piece that I’ve never experienced before and it was all worth it, and a lot of people don’t believe me when I say that, but all of it was worth it ’cause it’s made me the person I’m today.[00:14:51] Adversity brings on change. And when the change is usually for the better if you respond to it [00:15:00] correctly, like we could respond, like you said, wallow, that guy was probably sitting on his couch with a six pack next to him watching, Andy Griffith. But if you respond to it and go, okay, I’m going to work on these things.[00:15:11] And so the, one of the biggest things I put in the book is that maybe God, anything, everything that happened, God allows. Now, he doesn’t necessarily bring down evil, but he allows it to occur. So when something is bad, it is happening to us. Maybe our prayer should be, God, please get me out of this. Maybe it should be, God, what do you want me to learn on this?[00:15:33] What are you trying to tell me in this? So the pain will be shortened up a little bit because when we fight it, the pain is extended and often deepened. That was my favorite part. Oh, yeah that’s good stuff. Let me tell you, I’ve been to Israel. And I’ve seen that desert that the Israelites were wandering around in for how many years?[00:15:57] And I live in a desert and it’s [00:16:00] definitely humbling, brother. 120 degrees. Yeah. It’s there’s this joke about being 50 feet from hell cause it’s so hot out, but yeah, I think that it’s so timely to come out with this book on suffering because we all suffer and we all have that question.[00:16:18] Why are you allowing this to happen to me? And there’s so many different reasons why we suffer. And I hate to say this, but sometimes it’s our own fault and sometimes it’s somebody else’s sin and sometimes it’s just, we live in a fallen world. I think just breathing, you’re going to suffer.[00:16:41] You got a heartbeat, you’re going to suffer. But the great thing about having God as your saviors, he’s going to be with you through that suffering. He’s going to bring something good from that suffering. Amen. No, amen. He, and Jesus even says it, he tells us disciples, just because you’re a [00:17:00] Christian doesn’t mean everything is hunky dory, right?[00:17:03] You’re going to go through things. But like you just said, He’s there to walk with you, right? If you need your hand held, He’s there. If you need to be carried, He’ll be there to carry you, too. But a lot of times we screw that up ourselves with our selfishness. And I don’t really mean that in a bad way.[00:17:19] It’s just, it’s the the result of the fall, right? We don’t know God. We’re self centered. All of us are. There’s not one person out there that’s not. And we only think of ourselves, but when we think of the kingdom in a whole and you look at it from that perspective, things change that they really do.[00:17:37] And the things that you’ve been through or are going through don’t seem to be as bad. Right. They’re still bad. It’s still unfair. It’s still not right. But there’s a purpose in it. And that’s why the title of the book is God’s purpose in pain. And then the subtitle, why God allows suffering.[00:17:55] And a necessary, I believe is necessary, right? Because look at our kids. So, [00:18:00] so when we take our kids to get shots and stuff when they’re little, what’s mom and dad doing? They’re making me get this painful shots, but the end result is for their own benefit, like timeouts and even spankings they’re for their own benefit.[00:18:15] It’s not that we want to beat them up. It’s, we want to teach them how to get through life, right. Without being, jerks to other people. And I think that’s what God’s trying to do too. And he talks about that and he, and. Hebrews 12, he talks about that as if he didn’t love you, he wouldn’t be with you and allowing things to happen, or he wouldn’t be disciplining you for the bad things that you did.[00:18:39] Chastening is not fun right now, but it’s for your own good. Exactly. I’m paraphrasing the Bible. Yeah, it’s good enough. So everybody can understand. When is this book coming out? Do you have a date with the publisher? I don’t have a date yet. I’m hoping two to three months. I haven’t even put anything on the website yet.[00:18:59] I [00:19:00] probably will in the next few days to like coming soon. But you can always just go to my website, which is Christ hyphen centered healing.com, Christ hyphen centered healing dot. And I’m on Facebook and Instagram at A Christ Centered Healing. Oh, yeah. Awesome. I know we covered a lot of ground in just catching up with you, Norm.[00:19:21] Was there anything you didn’t talk about today that you wanted to mention to the listeners? I think I already said it. The reason why I do a lot of these things is because It’s that there is, I want to put it out there that there is hope for healing. I went through years and years of just turmoil because, I was just miserable, right?[00:19:44] Wallowing in my own pity. We don’t have to be that way, right? We don’t have to. And I don’t want to get this wrong, is that secular counseling is good, right? Counseling is good. It helps people. But it’s God that heals. [00:20:00] Right? You don’t want to go through the rest of your life coping with these negative emotions.[00:20:06] You want to heal. And there is healing if you so seek. The problem becomes it’s difficult, right? Because you have to face those demons. You have to talk about it. You have to journal it. You have to really resolve these issues. Forgive people. You don’t want to forgive, but it’s necessary. And if you do that, you will heal.[00:20:26] And you don’t have to go through your pain anymore. That’s my main message. And that’s. I just wish people healing. Oh I so enjoyed catching up with you and is it okay for me to say that I am proud of you, Norm, that you you’ve come so far and you keep going and serving Jesus despite whatever gets in your way.[00:20:48] And. Helping others and you got your two books out and wow. I’m really happy for you that you are, you’re still serving the Lord here. That’s so [00:21:00] nice. Thank you. And I’m so grateful for the things you do too. You have a great ministry putting this kind of stuff out there for people to see and people to really learn about trauma, about healing.[00:21:11] And so you’re doing a great job and I thank you for what you do. Thank you for coming on the show again. You’re welcome anytime, by the way, to come back. Okay. Lifetime pass. So for the rest of you guys, I have everything in the show notes for you. How to get in touch with Norm if you want to connect and get his books and maybe chat with him.[00:21:38] So God bless you, brother. Thank you. God bless you, too. Try to stay cool over there. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You can connect with us at DSWMinistries. org, [00:22:00] where you’ll find our blog along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week!