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Welcome back to Part Two with my guest Logan Hufford who continues his story of recovering from his sex addiction that nearly destroyed him and his marriage. He answers why his wife didn’t leave him, even though she had every right to. He tells us about the different recovery groups he was a part of and which one was actually the best fit for him. What is the real secret sauce to successful recovery? How do you talk to your kids about these sex topics? He offers lots of resources your those that are struggling with sex addiction. Join us for this important conversation.
BIO:
Logan is a born & raised Alaskan, married to his gorgeous bride Carrie, who herself is a 4th-generation Alaskan; and together they are raising 4 amazing but crazy little monkeys. Their life is a simple one – they love their family time, their dogs, and exploring the beautiful Alaskan wilderness. And yet, absolutely none of this should be possible today. For years, Logan did just about everything in his power to destroy his marriage and his life. Logan was a raging sex addict. Porn, affairs, hiring prostitutes, and more had simply become a way of life for Logan. He thought he had no hope. In 2016, God began to change all that. Through Recovery, God transformed Logan’s life and his marriage. Logan and his wife Carrie each now lead Recovery groups, doing what they can to give back by sharing the gifts that God has given.
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Logan Hufford Part Two
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer, songwriter, speaker, and domestic violence advocate, Diana Winkler. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help.[00:00:26] Now, here is Diana.[00:00:28] Welcome I’m glad you’re here. Thanks for coming back to listen to part two of[00:00:34] my guest, Logan Hufford, we, had a conversation about, his sex addiction and how he destroyed his life, his family, but he has been, recovering from that and is helping other people to recover from sexual addiction. I’m not going to read his bio again, but if you have not heard part one, please go back.[00:00:59] And listen to [00:01:00] part one so you don’t miss out on important details, but, I am going to, start part two of my conversation with Logan Hufford.[00:01:09] Of course, we’re all thinking, how did your wife put up with this for so long? Yeah. That’s a million dollar question is, why didn’t he, she just kick your behind out onto the curb. And yeah. And again, I’m speaking. At this point, Carrie’s not[00:01:25] Ready to do podcasts yet. I would love to do a round two come back. I would love to, for your guys sake. So everything I’m saying from her point of view, this is not me speculating. This is straight out of her mouth. These things that she’s shared in her testimony, that kind of thing. So three.[00:01:38] Bullet points she would say now looking back of why did she stay? So number 1, she doesn’t know what the heck to do. Because again, nobody should have to be prepared for the abuse that I put her through. So she didn’t know what to do. Right? Number 2, not only is she a Christian woman, she’s a new Christian woman.[00:01:57] She doesn’t know what it is [00:02:00] to grow up. In a Christian family, she’s trying to figure life out. She’s trying to figure out marriage. She’s trying to figure out how to be a Christian. And again, her words, she was like, okay I guess I need to love him more. I need to be more submissive. I need to, try to not to bring shame on the family.[00:02:15] She wasn’t telling her friends and stuff about, Oh, Logan did this and Logan did that. So she didn’t know what to do. She did want to try to be loving, try to be submissive, try to be a good wife.[00:02:26] And then number 3, and in some cases, this is maybe the most powerful 1 of all. So our kids now are 12, 11, almost 10, and 8. We got married young, we had our first kid a year after marriage 11 months after we got married, during most of this time, she’s pregnant, or she’s got little ones running around, so she’s in survival mode,[00:02:47] so I’m coming home, having done who knows what, the night before, the day of, all this.[00:02:52] Because there were confessions. There were many confessions of the affairs of the sexual encounters that I had a physical cheating. and so she’s [00:03:00] knowing about these things, intermittently, there’s these staggered confessions.[00:03:04] But she’s got to figure out she’s changing diapers, she’s okay. And what am I making for dinner tomorrow? And she doesn’t know what to do. She’s trying to be a good wife, whatever that looks like. She’s trying to be a good Christian. And then she’s in survival mode trying to take care of these babies.[00:03:17] That is a, that’s a heck of a recipe, for a woman To make the healthy choice and just stand up for several years. 6 months after we got married, I wrote her a letter and I confessed that I’d had sexual affairs. I honestly don’t remember how much of that was half truths. I know that I definitely stated that I had sex with multiple women.[00:03:38] As much as I can remember, I was trying to be honest. But again, was it followed up by a believable behavior? Nope. But I confessed that I cheated on her and then over the next several years, I confessed multiple more times. Basically, every time I would have a physical encounter with a woman, I, that would be enough to push me over the edge where I’m feeling so terrible about it that I would [00:04:00] confess to her.[00:04:00] And I do want to, I want to emphasize that I would feel so bad about it. So it served me. It didn’t serve her. It didn’t serve our family. I felt bad. And so it’s I have this nausea building up and then I’m vomiting and now I walk away. I’m feeling better. It feels good to throw up when you’re sick. It doesn’t feel good to be the person who got thrown up on.[00:04:21] Oh yeah. And so I would do that repeatedly and I, on some level, I was like, I don’t ever want to do this again. And the first few times I didn’t think I would do it again because I felt so much self hatred and so much despair over the next few years, though, probably we got married 2011. So probably, 2014, 2015, at that point, I had just succumbed to, okay, I can’t stop.[00:04:48] This is just going to continue. And it’s going to continue until I die. It’s going to continue until we get divorced. It’s going to continue until, who knows what, but there’s no way I can stop. There’s [00:05:00] no way out of this pit. and I do want to say this because on one hand, I mean, I very much believe.[00:05:06] Like addiction is real and being trapped in an addiction is a very real thing. That doesn’t mean that I’m not responsible for my choices. That doesn’t mean that I don’t have to take ownership of my choices. It’s the way I put it is I got myself trapped in this deep, dark cave and. Every step that I took to go into that deep dark cave was my choice.[00:05:27] That was my fault. I did that. However, it’s also true that at some point, I’m like, oh my gosh, I’m trapped in this deep dark cave and I don’t know how the heck to get out of here. And I don’t know if there’s a way out of here. And it’s not a perfect, metaphor, but it’s both things are true.[00:05:43] Like I couldn’t just flip that toggle switch off and go, okay, I’m just never going to make these unhealthy choices again. On my own, I couldn’t just stop that. I needed outside help. I needed heavy duty infrastructure changes. And by myself, [00:06:00] I could not do that.[00:06:01] And yet again, it also doesn’t take away ownership of the fact that I was the one making those choices. It wasn’t until God brought people into our lives separately and as a couple. And he used those people to, introduce that change. It was an easy switch.[00:06:16] By a long shot.[00:06:18] When was the day that you decided this is enough? I want to change for real. Now it would be like a pretty little picture if I could give you one date. But there wasn’t one date. There were multiple I view ’em kinda like landmarks.[00:06:32] The first real landmark was July of 2015. I had multiple physical encounters with women in addition to porn, almost constant porn. But most of them were one time encounters. There usually wasn’t emotional relationships going along with them for a variety of reasons, but this one was, this was a full on month long affair.[00:06:56] In addition to the physical, and this was also somebody [00:07:00] that, again, unlike every one of my previous affairs, this was somebody that Carrie didn’t know personally, but she knew that I’d sold a car to this lady.[00:07:08] She knew that I had been texting her and she’d asked me questions, she had leaned in and asked me about stuff and I’d lied to her face. And so Carrie will would tell you, out of all of the pain that I’d caused her, this was the most hurtful. This was July of 2015. And so after that happened, she did something that she’d never done before.[00:07:28] And she gave me an ultimatum. She said, if you don’t make serious change, if you don’t get help, then you will lose me and the kids. Absolutely. She’s not somebody that just speaks rashly. So that was our landmark. That was July, the end of July, 2015. So then I started to do some things. I started to go to sex X anonymous.[00:07:49] It’s kind of like AA for this. It’s not Christ based, the doorknob can be your higher power. The sky can be your higher power. This group can be your higher power. Did my infrastructure change a little bit? Yeah. I started going to a meeting [00:08:00] once a week and that was There was some good stuff to that, but there was no healing.[00:08:03] There was no transformation. At one point I had four months of sobriety, but I had no healing, no actual recovery. Bad day at work, November 2015, went off to the bathroom, masturbated to pornography. I wasn’t straight back into all the old ways, but I was back to pornography back to flirting never went to that meeting ever again.[00:08:21] People have asked the very legitimate question, well, okay, then why didn’t Carrie leave then? Again, I don’t like speaking for her, but on 1 hand. This is still very early in any sort. We didn’t even understand the word recovery at that point.[00:08:35] So she still didn’t know exactly what to do, but she saw that there was some desire to do things differently, even though I was so far from perfect. I was going to some meetings, I was opening up. So whether she should have left me or not, she didn’t. because she saw that there was some desire to do things differently.[00:08:52] It was bare minimum. Absolutely bare minimum, but I, but I went to a celebrate recovery at 1 point. So it’s quite a space, which is that’s 1 piece. [00:09:00] Yeah, I’m familiar with Celebrate Recovery. I’ve been a part of a few churches that had that, but yeah. And so it was good to, to be in a recovery setting that, we’re talking about Christ.[00:09:12] We’re talking about the fact that healing needs to come through Christ. That’s true healing. That was good. Most recovery groups, and at least this CR was this way, they want it to be a safe space. So you’re not allowed to give feedback. You’re not allowed to ask questions. If somebody shares how their week has been, then, okay, thank you for sharing Logan.[00:09:30] And then the next guy goes, that’s not what I needed. I was a manipulator. I was a liar. I was somebody who would work the room and get what I wanted. And I would be just enough emotional, or I would be just enough, show shame. And so I would do what I needed to do to feel better, right?[00:09:43] Just like I did to Carrie when I would do those vomit confessions. So at SAA and even CR, it brought some good elements. It taught me to open up a bit. It taught me to see that there’s other people that have some sobriety, but I didn’t have feedback and [00:10:00] real accountability because it wasn’t really allowed in that way.[00:10:03] I could have sought it outside the group, but the group itself didn’t really allow for it. So this guy. There was part of that group. His name is Rick. He pulled me aside after the first meeting. He goes, Hey, I’m glad you’re here, but I think you need more. He’s I needed more. And so he told me about this group called Prodigals.[00:10:18] So at this time we’re already in Wasilla. We live in Wasilla. And he said, this group’s in Anchorage, which is an hour South. He’s you should come with me sometime. He’s it’s a hardcore group. It’s not easy, but it’s what I needed to really get free from this. And I pushed him off for several months.[00:10:35] That was at the end of 2015 or maybe the start of 2016. Finally, in March, I went with him to a prodigals group and I met men there that I did not think existed. These were men multiple men, Who had not, maybe not the exact same story as mine, but similar stories, affairs, prostitutes, pornography, all that.[00:10:57] And they had years of sobriety, but [00:11:00] not just sobriety. They had years of mostly restored marriages. Not all because obviously, not even if a guy starts making serious change, that’s no guarantees that the wife’s going to, stick around to find out if it’s real and that’s totally their right, but mostly restored marriages, mostly transformed marriages.[00:11:18] All these guys cases, I mean, these were healthy, genuine, just raw and healthy guys that you would not have ever expected the types of things that I, was still doing, basically, to that point. So that was the first moment where I had hope. I saw guys that had done things like me and had gotten out of it.[00:11:36] And so I’m like, okay, I don’t know what these guys had to do, but there is a way out of the cave, I guess. And finally, in May had May 19th was not necessary. I mean, there was no shining firebolt from heaven, no dove. But May 19th is my sobriety date. I got into a program, which is not just the weekly meeting, but it’s basically a voluntary house arrest.[00:11:58] It’s called the Prodigal Mentorship Program. It’s [00:12:00] a voluntary program. It’s about 2 years. Super hard work. Hour of homework a day, daily phone calls, multiple meetings, mentor meetings is super hard work. But it again, it’s what I needed. I needed God using men to like completely strip away how I did life and as my mentor would say, and now I look back and it’s a beautiful thing.[00:12:24] He would always remind me like. You’re going through a lot of accountability and a lot of rules and a lot of loss of freedom. You’re giving up some freedom now so that you can have actual freedom for the rest of your life. And God has given me that. And that’s my thing. Carrie got into recovery in July of 2016.[00:12:43] So Rick’s wife, Patty, who led a group called Partners in Process. And that is for women that have been harmed by sexual betrayal trauma. And so Carrie dove right in and she shares as her part of her testimony that she made a promise from that first meeting that she would [00:13:00] always share at any meeting she went to, no matter how she felt, she would always share how she was doing and that she would keep coming back.[00:13:06] And and other than, the odd holidays and stuff like that we’ve never stopped going to recovery. And now, so I lead a prodigals group now for men. And then she leads the partners in process because Rick and Patty have since moved so close with them, but they, when you’re up in Alaska and somebody moves to the lower 48s, it’s.[00:13:22] It’s tricky. You don’t just visit on a weekend. And I mean, it’s been eight years of not perfection, but eight years of healing that should not exist outside of God. And transformation that should not exist outside of God. And people, again, the people that God has used, to bring about real change.[00:13:40] It’s something I did not think could have existed.[00:13:42] I’m into that. I’m just so thankful for that one guy that Took you aside and said, you need this specific group and didn’t give up on you and you finally went. One person can make a difference in another person’s life and that’s proof of [00:14:00] that . I’m really glad that of course, I have a mixed audience and definitely the ladies need a place to go to where they can recover and heal and try and rebuild their marriage if there’s a marriage left.[00:14:16] And this is just amazing. So that the real secret sauce here to the success seems to be accountability. What else is the secret sauce here? Yeah the, yeah, to try to look at it from that angle, like the core of it not to be cheesy, but it’s, I absolutely believe it is the initial secret sauce, of course, is Christ is the center of it.[00:14:40] That we weren’t just looking at what practical elements can we change, but Christ is the center. That without faith in Christ, I can stop behaviors. But the actual healing is not going to be there. But again, God’s in churches. God is in celebrate recovery and God’s in other groups that not saying that stuff is not good.[00:14:58] It’s for me. It was [00:15:00] not enough. So in addition to that, yeah, accountability multiple times over. I mean, continual touch points with my mentor, other mentors, lots of phone calls, meetings, all this. And I had to want it. Rick told me very early on one day after we met before I was sober, this probably was March or April.[00:15:21] And he called me one day. He’s Hey, Logan, haven’t heard from you in a while. How are you doing? And I talked to him and I have no recollection of, I don’t remember how that day went, but I remember I talked to him and he was like, just so you know, I probably won’t call you again for a while. I’m like, didn’t really understand that.[00:15:36] He’s you want help? You start making phone calls. Don’t wait for other people to call you. And I needed to hear that, in the program, you make a phone call every single day. Or so you’re making on average, or the average guy is making 800 phone calls because 1 a day for 2 years, and there’s going to be days where you got to make more than 1 because you’re struggling or whatever.[00:15:57] That’s that you can’t not make a phone call. [00:16:00] That is an outgoing phone call. I can’t wait for somebody to call me and check in and it’s not, talking about the kids or the weather sports. It’s. How am I doing with temptations, with triggers, stressors, sexual or otherwise, so yes, accountability.[00:16:13] And then for Carrie, so there’s a word that I brought up earlier again, coming from her own mouth. That she wanted to be the submissive wife, and I’m not going to get into, submission but, she wanted to be that, right? And that’s an honorable thing that she was, she was trying to do whatever, even though she didn’t know what it looked like, right?[00:16:30] She’s trying to do that. Well, that word comes into play again, but in a very different way. She completely submitted to people that God put in her life. She submitted to the process. and that in of itself is a miracle because if it’s one thing, if I got into recovery and she got into recovery, it would make a lot of logical sense that she would like, she’s going to be a watchdog, right?[00:16:51] I’m going to put my magnifying glass on Logan and I’m going to know exactly where he’s going and exactly who’s talking. And that’s logical. That’s, that makes a ton of logical sense, but she [00:17:00] didn’t do that. She gave me over basically, not just to Rick, not just to one guy, but to. The mentorship team to also, Rick and Patty, of course, or they’re a couple that working together.[00:17:09] So there, she had multiple points of contact. If she wanted to check in and see how things are going, if she needed to hear about something, she’d find out about it, but she gave away her control of my recovery. She didn’t try to fix me herself. She’s like, God’s put these people in your life.[00:17:24] Okay. I’m going to let them deal with you. I’m going to let God deal with you through them. That’s really hard. Hats off to Carrie. Cause that is hard to do. Yeah. I mean, there’s[00:17:35] so many things in our story that, that make no logical sense. I mean, they’re outside of God, outside of true healing. There’s no place for the things that we’re able to do, the things that we’re able to talk about the fact that we’re able to, lead ministry together, we get to raise kids around recovery, where there’s not the stigma of recovery that, that, recovery is for broken people or recovery is for, [00:18:00] sinners or recovery is for people that are kind of those types. No, recovery is for anyone that has anything that they need healing from.[00:18:08] Which guess what? That’s everyone. Yes. And so like our kids, we go to church, yeah, we call it night church. We go to, every Monday night we go to recovery. And as kids, they just, we just called it night church and they would go, we have child care, which is a huge blessing. And, they go, but as they gotten older we talk about what recovery is.[00:18:24] They, at an appropriate level, they know our story. They know. Brokenness. They know that we didn’t just stick it out just for them or just to be good. No, God. Rebuild our marriage, and this has been, they know why Rick and Patty are in our lives. They know why we go on Monday nights. Maybe there will be a day where coming home at night and being able to, kiss my boys and play with them at night is not a ridiculously special thing that So far, 8 years in, there’s not a day that I don’t just cherish [00:19:00] that.[00:19:00] Cause when I pray with them, and I get to kiss them goodnight, and I get to, snuggle in bed next to Carrie, and wake up next to Carrie, and go to the grocery store with Carrie, and do dishes, and eight years in every single day, I thank God because I know how much I do not deserve that, based on my actions for so long.[00:19:19] But it also allows me to cherish God’s grace and God’s forgiveness in a way that I know I don’t deserve it. And those are not just words, I love that. I love that part of your story because you want to leave a legacy for your kids and you already know the society we live in is different even than the one that we grew up in and they are going to be exposed to all that stuff.[00:19:44] And there’s predators out there, of course, as and they’re probably not old enough for the sex talk, right? Well, we definitely have with our oldest, we’ve had multiple, because that’s part of it too that we realized is It’s not [00:20:00] a sex talk, right?[00:20:00] It’s opening up that conversation and then being willing to continually, it’s like this ongoing TV show that, Hey, we’re going to keep on having episodes, we’re going to keep talking about it. Teachable moments here and there. Right. Yeah. Right. And yeah it’s looked different for our 12 year old then our 10 year old or almost 10 year old we’ve got four boys and they’re all different and they have all different personalities.[00:20:20] Sure, but yeah, just opening up that conversation because so there’s one piece I didn’t get into that. I mean, I don’t have time obviously to get into everything. Right. But. There’s one piece to my upbringing that I do mention, and there’s zero part of me blaming anything on this, nothing like that.[00:20:36] But again, no family’s perfect, right? No person’s perfect. I had an incredibly blessed upbringing, but there was one piece that I would definitely say was missing. And doesn’t mean that made me this way not by a long shot, but it was a factor that it just, it was a factor in how I was raised.[00:20:55] My parents did a phenomenal job raising us. They did a really good job in a lot of ways. They [00:21:00] were basically never and I almost never use the words never and always I really try not to, but they were basically never vulnerable with us. They would teach us principles. They would talk to us about the Bible.[00:21:12] They would talk to us about right and wrong. And they did a really good job teaching us those things, but they didn’t really share their personal stories or, the struggles that they would have, whether ongoing or in the past, I understand, how you’re going to teach a six year old is different than what you’re going to say to a 16 year old and everything but it really never happened.[00:21:30] And. I remember, I, I’ve had conversations with my mom and dad about that and not at all that was wrong. It just, but I just shared, I do wish that you guys would have talked to me about, struggles that you had and failures and things that you regretted, so the only reason I bring that up is, I mean, I do and carry both of us. I mean, we do try to be very intentional to, to be vulnerable because I can, my goodness, I mean, raising kids is. Not easy. There’s a whole lot I don’t have figured out. But I figured if I can at least be vulnerable [00:22:00] and stay vulnerable and keep that, that link open, that line open to conversation at least then we can continually have those conversations.[00:22:08] Cause you know, that having sex talks, talking about pornography, talking about, the idea of a girlfriend or, just anything, right. I mean, doesn’t have to do a sex. If there’s no vulnerability, if there’s no open communication, then, I mean, I can teach them all I want, but how much of that’s going to be absorbed, right?[00:22:24] How many conversations we’re going to have. That’s a whole other topic. And I’m not saying that I have that perfected by a long shot, but something we try to be intentional about.[00:22:32] That is super important. And. I think that whole thing of not being vulnerable as a generational thing is my parents weren’t that way either.[00:22:41] They never talked about real stuff that they went through. Now I’m finding out stuff now they’re in their seventies. I can have those conversations like you’re having with your folks, but boy with the kids it’s really valuable to have that relationship with them if [00:23:00] something were to happen to them, that they would come to you and they’d be able to have the words to describe what they went through or their concerns. That’s so important right now, cause I, I talked to people in my abuse recovery groups that, they didn’t even know the names of their body parts.[00:23:19] Yeah, like what you said, you never knew what sex was when you started looking in the JCPenney catalogs. They didn’t even know. They could not even verbalize anything whether if somebody showed them a girly magazine or a porn video, they wouldn’t even know what they were looking at or be able to describe the trauma experienced.[00:23:38] Looking at that before their brains are even developed. But I certainly hats off to you for putting that work in with the kids because, and we’re so busy, like your wife is just trying to keep them diapered and fed and, from, bleeding or whatever.[00:23:56] And it’s hard to, Take that extra step and, [00:24:00] Hey, let’s sit and talk about something that happened today or something we saw on the TV or whatever, and that is super valuable and so needed right now. I know we were all over the place. I asked some really tough questions, but we got people listening to your story, which is phenomenal.[00:24:18] Your journey. How can people listening get help like you described? Is there a way they can join the group that you’re in or something similar? Do you consult with people?[00:24:33] So the answer to that, at this point, we’re recording this at the end of May. The answer to that at this point is it’s a case by case basis, and I don’t know what the resources will be for each and every person that might reach out.[00:24:46] I remember when I was 24, 25, 26, and in that timeframe where things were darkest of dark. I had gotten to the point where I just, I didn’t think that there were people out there. That had healing from this.[00:24:58] I didn’t think that [00:25:00] existed. So number one, my purpose on coming here is just to share, shed some light and share that there is hope that there are people out there that have done the worst of the worst and that have found healing. There’s people with far worse stories than I have that have found healing.[00:25:16] And I’m not just saying that. So that’s 1 piece now. Yeah, it depends on where somebody lives. Geographically. Obviously, I don’t know what groups are available there and, what types of therapists are available there and that kind of thing that obviously we, we’re blessed by technology in the sense that there is remote stuff.[00:25:33] I do believe call me old fashioned. I think just from a psychological standpoint, there’s so much power in the physical connection of being part of a physical group, or, meeting with some someone personally. If somebody lives in a small town, two hours from anywhere, okay, well then, probably join an online group, because that would be better than nothing.[00:25:55] But, if you can, find a good group that has these things [00:26:00] has something that you want the leaders have a story that you would like to be able to have. Ideally, multiple people, at least a leader that has several years of healthy living. That would be 1 thing I would look for.[00:26:15] And I’m always going to say, all possible find a Christ based recovery group, whether it’s the man or the woman or some other addiction. Yeah, I can find. Some helpful tips and tricks and some helpful tools, but without Christ, there’s not going to be true healing. There’s not going to be true transformation both eternally and on earth price based in person if possible, but ultimately, whatever I got to do to find it.[00:26:39] And then, yeah, led by somebody that has. A few years of healthy living if possible. And for, for a big difference in prodigals versus other groups where that we, we give feedback, we ask tough questions of guys and not just the new guys. I have guys in my life on a daily basis that I am putting stuff out there and they’re giving me feedback.[00:26:59] They’re asking me [00:27:00] questions, especially as I’m doing stuff like this, going on podcasts and working on things, put myself out there that’s. Could open itself up to stuff, whether it’s sexual temptations, ego stuff, time wasting, or whatever. And accountability is never going to leave my life.[00:27:14] I’m, and I’m starting to preach and I’m sorry. No, I like it. Now, in terms of like you asked, do I consult do can people join my group. So the group that I lead on Monday nights, it is a, it’s an open group but it is in person only. But there are lots of online groups. There’s also lots of in person groups, in different cities.[00:27:35] I know guys it’s a handful, but I know guys that live in various parts of, the United States. So who knows, there’s a chance that a guy from Prodigals that has a lot of healthy living, You know, it might live near you if you’re in Ohio, if you’re in Texas, if you’re in Washington, Idaho, there’s multiple guys like that.[00:27:50] But, no matter where you live, I bet there’s resources. Now, so you can reach out to me if you’re listening and you have a question, or you want to talk to me about how to find good [00:28:00] resources. I’m more than happy to respond to an email, jump on a quick call. I can give you, a couple of points of contact, Diana, if you want to put them in the show notes.[00:28:08] Thanks. Would look at it this way, it would be disingenuous of me to say, Oh yeah, absolutely. Reach out to me and I’ll help guide you through the rest of your life. No I wouldn’t be able to do that from a time and energy perspective, but I can be one of the hands, that reaches into the pit to help lift you out to help point you in the right direction.[00:28:25] But it’s gonna, it’s probably going to take. Looking at multiple groups, maybe attending multiple groups visiting with a few different therapists, that kind of thing. And everything I’m saying, I realize I’m like I’m the dude, I was the perpetrator, but I will also speak from Kerry’s perspective, if a woman is listening, most of these things apply in terms of, finding that healing.[00:28:47] Cause we see it all the time and I’m sure you see it, right. Is, somebody that had something happen to them. Sometimes people respond with. I didn’t do this. If a woman was cheated on, [00:29:00] we see it all the time where a woman goes, Hey, I didn’t do this. I didn’t cheat on you. That’s your problem.[00:29:03] You can go to recovery. I don’t need to spend my time and energy. I’ve got things to do. And it’s not about whose fault it is. It’s not about fairness. My wife, was wounded. She had parts of her that were broken. From her point of view. It’s not about whose fault it was. She needed to go get healing.[00:29:24] And we’ve seen so many marriages that the, even if the husband goes out and seeks healthy living and victory and recovery, and that’s awesome. That’s great. But the wife, whether she stays in the marriage or not, if she doesn’t seek recovery, it’s kind of like she’s frozen in time. Where she’s forever going to be the betrayed spouse.[00:29:46] She’s forever going to be the wounded spouse. And Carrie would be the first to tell you she, she hasn’t forgotten about what I’ve done. She hasn’t forgotten about those wounds. And I, this is not said lightly, but she has experienced [00:30:00] healing from them. She’s not stuck in 2016. That’s amazing.[00:30:04] That’s from God, but it’s the truth. Yeah, she’s not that forever bitter and lonely and angry and never trusting you again. And I don’t forgive you. Those are the kinds of things that, that you work on in recovery. Yeah. So sometimes people, especially outside of recovery, it’s like this, well, one option is you divorce that jerk.[00:30:26] You leave that jerk. Now, again, I’m not saying that she had every right to divorce me, biblical grounds. And, but, when you leave that jerk, just leave him behind, move on. And then the other camp is like, no, you stay with your spouse. You be a good spouse. Instead of well, is it possible?[00:30:40] There’s a third option, is it now, whether you leave or stay, seek healing, seek recovery. and yeah we do not push people to get divorced. We recognize that, a woman has every right. If she’s been cheated on, if she’s been betrayed, the Bible is very clear on that. She has every right.[00:30:57] To seek divorce, but, a [00:31:00] woman and a man both are saying, Hey, we want recovery, we’re willing to do what it takes. Then, ideally, we would love for them to move towards true reconciliation and transformation, but it’s not they don’t come to recovery to work on their marriage. They come to recovery, the wife comes to work on her healing.[00:31:18] The man comes to work on his recovery, and we let God take care of what God wants to take care of. It’s not coming to recovery for marriage advice, marriage counsel. In a lot of cases, if both parties are seeking recovery, I’ll put it this way.[00:31:32] If both parties are seeking recovery, I have not seen a couple that ended up getting divorced. I’m sure it’s happened, but if both parties are seeking healing. There has been true reconciliation is God’s at the center of it. And both parties are seeking that. I’m starting to get rambling and I’m, if you can tell I’m passionate about this are, and I’ve seen the churches that do it the wrong way where they [00:32:00] put the couple in marriage counseling.[00:32:03] And think that is going to fix the marriage. No, you’ve got to do the recovery first and do the, do that work you were talking about. And then yeah, when that’s completed, you can come together and work on the marriage part. Marriage counseling doesn’t fix anything.[00:32:20] Right. You’re not going to get to the core of the issue. Want to be respectful of your time. You’ve been so generous with today and being so authentic and really raw with your story. I so appreciate that. I’ve learned a lot. I’ve never struggled with addiction of any kind. So it’s me learning from other people.[00:32:41] But I know that the listeners appreciated you coming on today and you’ve given us so many tools and possible resources to help them or maybe a loved one. So, thank you so much for coming on the show. I will put your contact information in the show [00:33:00] notes for the folks and anytime you’re in Arizona, let me know we’ll have coffee or tea or lunch with your family. I’d love to meet them. That would be awesome.[00:33:11] And your wife’s always welcome to come on the show when she’s ready. God bless you. Keep in touch. Absolutely. Thanks, Diana.[00:33:21] Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You can connect with us at DSW Ministries. org where you’ll find our blog along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week!