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We’re talking about the latest hot topic, the documentary Shiny Happy People. It exposes the Duggar secrets and the Bill Gothard’s fundamentalist cult, the IBLP. What do they believe? What did Josh Duggar go to prison for? What’s it like growing up on a reality show? How do you heal from such a religious cult? All these answers and more on our episode today. This week has sensitive content about rape and child abuse, which could trigger some listeners.
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Duggars
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. Brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, Diana Winkler. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help.[00:00:26] Now here is Diana.[00:00:33] Welcome back to the podcast. Glad I didn’t scare any of you away with last week’s episode on Abraham and Isaac. Tough content. I know. Now, this week I am going to do a review on Shiny Happy people. The documentary, I don’t usually talk about hot topics on [00:01:00] this show, but it’s all over social media and my advocacy groups, and people want to talk about this documentary.[00:01:10] It actually hits close to home for me, so we’re gonna talk about it. There’s a lot to cover with this particular cult, but before we start though, I’m gonna give you an update on adventures in foot surgery. My cast comes off tomorrow. I am excited about that. Two weeks with this thing on and being on bedrest.[00:01:43] Um, the majority of the time. I’m ready to get out of the house. I think I get a walking boot next, and I start physical therapy next week. Learning to walk with my toe surgery, I [00:02:00] learned a lot this time On the first surgery, uh, they gave me a walker to get around since it is a non-weight-bearing surgery, which means my foot cannot touch the ground.[00:02:16] And it’s not as easy as it sounds. I had very little pain the first week and no pain the second with my foot, but I had pain in my shoulders and in my hands, uh, from that stupid walker, and it was getting old by the third day. You know, I appreciate an upper body workout every time I go to pee, just like the next girl.[00:02:47] But, my hands and my shoulders hurt more than my feet. So by the end of the first week, I asked for a knee scooter, by my surgeon. And he [00:03:00] said insurance wasn’t going to cover it, so just order it on Amazon. And even with Amazon two day shipping, I got it on the third day, so I got it Wednesday night and it’s way better than a walker.[00:03:17] If you ever have foot surgery, just put the money out and get the knee scooter, you will be much happier. I’ve got a basket to put stuff in. And the handles are soft and it has a knee cushion. The turning radius isn’t very good. My house is very, small. The walls in the rooms are very close together and tight, so, It takes, a lot of those three point turns.[00:03:50] I got to take the, scooter out into the yard and look at my plants and get some fresh air. Brian took really [00:04:00] good care of the, plants and the worms and the cat.[00:04:06] I haven’t gotten to see the cat in a week and a half. So when I got my scooter, I had to go to the front porch where the cat is. She’s an outdoor cat, only.[00:04:18] So, she pretty much, aloof towards me. That’s what a cat is, right? It’s typical cat behavior. Some days she’s very affectionate and other days she’s very independent and just gimme my food. When she was more interested in Brian because he had been feeding her twice a day and, you know, she’ll let me petter, but, oh, well.[00:04:45] but the hardest part of the surgery was sitting all day with the T V and tried to entertain myself. Watched a lot of movies, some of my favorite ones, and then maybe [00:05:00] a couple new movies.[00:05:02] I got a Sudoko book and I have no idea how to win without peeking in the back. I did some work on my website. I actually, read the books that were on my nightstand that I had been wanting to read a long time. My Saving Grace was my neighbor who fed us every day.[00:05:25] She’s a great cook so she brought us home cooked food. And, uh, Brian would make me breakfast and my tea in the morning. And she would sit and chat with me for a little bit as well. I had my, friend Kelly come over and visit with me.[00:05:45] She’s actually my bible study group leader, and it was really nice to see her and to catch up on some girl talk. So that was my experience with my foot surgery.[00:06:00][00:06:00] I do the left foot in eight weeks, so now I know what to expect.[00:06:05] So in sitting around on the couch all day, one of the movies I watched was Shiny Happy People. You know, I had seen all kinds of posts about it on, Facebook and Twitter, and all my, uh, friends had seen it already and they were commenting about it.[00:06:29] I saw that it was on Amazon Prime, so I thought, okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna take a look at this. I wasn’t going to watch it at first because I was not sure how it was going to affect me. If you are not familiar with what this documentary series is about, It is primarily about the Dugger Family Secrets 19 Kids and Counting was [00:07:00] Michelle and Jim Bob’s Reality Show and the Bill Gothard’s, I B L P.[00:07:06] cult. I’m gonna be saying that abbreviation a lot on this episode. That stands for Institute for Basic Life Principles. We’re gonna hear a little more about Bill Gothard here later. But the Dugger oldest, Josh went to prison for child pornography recently, and he had previously sexually assaulted five girls, some of which were his own sisters.[00:07:41] The family had tried to keep it hidden. And he never got any professional help. The girls didn’t get any trauma counseling. So this, series is four episodes. For most people that have watched [00:08:00] this series, it has been triggering for them. Um, and you’ll find out why. So if you are familiar with, Bill Gothard, if you suffered from that sort of a background, I’m going to be talking about some of the abuses that, most of the abuses from this cult.[00:08:24] And yes, it is a cult. but anyway, we’ve been doing our Bible series on character studies and I’m still in Genesis and I haven’t decided on the next character in the series for you guys. So that’s why I decided to go ahead and take notes and watch this series.[00:08:48] It took me most of the day sitting on the couch and to do a podcast episode or two on this. I might try to,[00:09:00] get a guest on the show that’s been through this. I haven’t found anybody willing to come on the podcast and talk about it yet, but I’m working on it. So a little background. In case you are new here and you don’t know my story, the I B L P is a branch of Fundamental Baptists and just like every denomination, there are different sects or groups of fundamentalism depending on where you live and who your pastor was or what school you went to.[00:09:37] So you have the Jack Hyles Group, Pensacola Group, the John Rice Group, a Bob Jones group, west Coast Bible College, or Golden State. Uh, out here in Arizona. You’ve got Steven Anderson group. But the one we’re talking about Bill Gothard, and there’s a whole bunch more that I, I can’t [00:10:00] remember right now, but those are some of the main ones.[00:10:04] They all have the same foundational beliefs. As far as doctrine goes, but then they have these varying degrees of extreme beliefs, and they’re usually based on standards and extra biblical stuff. So, for example, the majority of these different groups believe the King James only, listening only to hymns.[00:10:33] No secular music or rock music. The pastor is the highest authority, male patriarchy, the doctrine of hell. Women don’t have any say in anything. Motherhood is the only path for women submit to the husband. No pants on women, no dating. [00:11:00] They spank their kids and they, most of them believe in the purity culture.[00:11:06] And there are some fundamental groups that are what we call I F B Light. They have the same doctrine, but they’re not as strict like about dress code or the music. Now, I myself did not grow up in fundamentalism. I was 18 years old before I was baptized into the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church.[00:11:33] I was saved in my cousin’s church, which was an I F B church at V B S when I was 13 years old. But my parents raised as Catholic and would not let me go to my cousin’s church. I wasn’t really happy about it at the time, but because I was by myself as a new believer, but [00:12:00] looking back, hindsight’s 2020, I tell you, I think that God may have been protecting me from a lot of stuff that my friends went through.[00:12:12] Um, I had a normal childhood, pretty much, uh, normal teenage years. I had a boyfriend. I went to the prom. I listened to a variety of music. I went to public school. My parents were pretty strict, but I grew up in a loving home and not a perfect home, mind you, I went to Catholic school until the fourth grade and went to church.[00:12:44] I had a belief in God. I knew who Jesus was. I knew he died on the cross for my sin. And I knew right and wrong. We’re gonna talk about spanking later, but I was spanked as a kid, [00:13:00] but I can count on one hand with change leftover how many times I was spanked. And it was for severe infringements, like stealing, uh, almost starting a forest fire, sneaking out of the house. For the rest of the stuff.[00:13:20] Uh, we would get grounded.[00:13:22] The Duggers, the fundamentalists, Bill Gothard, they spanked the kids for any minor infraction, and they were spanked multiple times a day, sometimes an hour long until they stopped crying. If you remember. My friends on the show, joy and Jason Harris, Jason and his siblings suffered severe beatings from his father and now he wasn’t a part of I B L P, but we came from the same [00:14:00] denomination, the same group where it was ultra-conservative and had a lot of these principles from a fundamentalist church.[00:14:12] I was part of a few different types of fundamentalist churches, some severe and some were light. In college, I was kind of associated with the Bob Jones group. Since my pastor, was a Bob Jones University graduate. the church I was baptized in pastor went to Baptist Bible College and I didn’t see that as severe as some of the other churches I was a part of.[00:14:44] Later when I was church planning in New Jersey, I was part of a Jack Hyles based church, which was quite severe, very legalistic, very similar to the group that you’re going [00:15:00] to hear about today. And the rest of the churches I was a part of were variants in between. So I was never in a Bill Goard, I B L P church, but I definitely knew people who were in this group.[00:15:18] So I am familiar with the legalism and the wacko beliefs. Now, I’m not going to go through everything in the documentary series. I’m just gonna do some highlights and comment on things. Of course, you can watch it for yourselves if you’re not interested in watching or don’t have access. I will just give you the basic gist of what’s going on here.[00:15:44] So here we go. Jim and Michelle Dugger did the show, 19 Kids in Counting for 10 years. Of course, it was very scripted and edited, made to look [00:16:00] like they were the perfect family. Now, I never saw this show myself. I don’t really like reality TV because I already know that it’s fake. I used to watch singing competitions like the Voice until I found out from my Nashville Music mentor that the winner is already picked beforehand.[00:16:26] The rest of the contestants they pick based on their tear jerker stories, but they don’t have a chance based on their talent because the winner has already been picked. Kinda ruins it for me. So the Duggar show is the same way. You’ve got perfect kids, obedient, kids, talented, organized, always happy. It’s more like marketing for the I B L P.[00:16:58] Most of the [00:17:00] kids, they grew up on tv. Michelle even gave birth on TV in the delivery room. Which I thought was way too personal. And there is a sad part of the business side of the show. You find out that Jim, Bob, the father got all the money for his children, all 19 of them being in the show. Even when the kids turned 18, they never got paid.[00:17:33] They never got any money. And so there were some shady dealings going on and then it is so sad you gave up your privacy all those years and you don’t have any rights. It is really, really sad.[00:17:53] Well, let’s learn a little bit about Jim, Bob and Michelle here. Jim, [00:18:00] Bob grew up poor from a religious family.[00:18:03] Actually, his. Father passed out those Gideon Bibles that you see in the hotel nightstands.[00:18:13] So he came from a religious family. Michelle had a normal upbringing. They got married early. Now how did they wind up with 19 kids? Jim, Bob said she was on birth control early in their marriage, but she got pregnant anyway and they had a miscarriage, and they erroneously believe that the pill caused the miscarriage.[00:18:44] So they decided to not use any birth control from then on.[00:18:49] Now, I don’t know where they got their information, but it’s wrong. As a pharmacy professional, I assure you that taking the pill does not [00:19:00] cause miscarriages. Miscarriages are caused by underlying health conditions. It’s usually genetics or family history, not the pill. You can even Google that right now.[00:19:14] Any reputable medical professional would tell you the pill does not cause miscarriages, and she probably got pregnant because she most likely missed a dose of the pill, which it happens where it’s 99%. Effective if you’re using it properly. But making the decision not to use birth control isn’t wrong, so don’t mishear me now.[00:19:45] Every couple’s got to make their own choice on family planning. But spreading misinformation about medical stuff is wrong. [00:20:00] Now, I personally have known families in my church with 11 children. The mom always looked exhausted, never lost any of her pregnancy weight, and had one pregnancy after another without any rest, and the husband could hardly feed and clothe the kids.[00:20:23] They were always poor. The mom would always say that this is God’s will for me. I mean, good grief, even the 12 sons of Jacob, they all had different mothers. Uh, it isn’t reasonable or healthy for one woman to have that many children continually mean Who takes care of all those kids? Well, the oldest children do.[00:20:53] Of course, this is called Parentification. Now, even small families [00:21:00] probably experience this. You yourself may have taken care of a younger sibling in some form or fashion. That’s natural. But this parentification in I B L P is more formalized. There’s a lot more responsibilities and no one checks to see if the older siblings have any needs of their own.[00:21:29] Do they need a parent? Do they need schooling? Do they need a break? But one of the primary principles of the I B L P is called quiverfull. It means to have as many children as possible to raise leaders to infiltrate government or the community for world domination. Sounds [00:22:00] ridiculous, right? Well, it’s the same thing[00:22:02] we accused the Russians, the Muslims, And the Scientologists of having an agenda like that, they all have a similar mission. Obedience is the most important principle for all involved. We mentioned spanking already. Spanking is all the way up to adulthood and they even have wife spanking. Yes, you heard me correctly.[00:22:35] Uh, I personally know an evangelist, Tom Williams, who used to tell the story in his sermons on marriage. He travels all over the country. I think he still does. And he sold these cassette tapes for his marriage series.[00:22:53] And his wife, it’s, I think it’s his second wife. He’s married to his [00:23:00] third wife now, but his second wife got bacterial meningitis in Israel, and she got so sick she was pretty much a vegetable after that, she had the mentality of a child and the preacher got up and told us a story about how he spanked his wife.[00:23:22] And he defended himself by saying, well, she was acting like a fourth grader, so I have to treat her like a fourth grader. And when she passed away, uh, he married her nurse. Oh, convenient. Oh yes. Ladies and gentlemen, I’m not making this stuff up. Uh, the stuff’s probably still in my garage somewhere on cassette.[00:23:48] Um, if I find it, I’ll let you know.[00:23:50] Now, another huge cornerstone of this group is homeschooling. It’s more like [00:24:00] indoctrination, not education. They don’t send their kids to public schools or private schools. The moms teach their kids at home using the I B L P curriculum. Now, I am not against homeschooling in general.[00:24:19] I know some families who have very well educated and socialized kids that homeschooled. They’re very smart and they test above their grade level. And then I know some parents that, they have kids that. Do not do well homeschooling. Their parents don’t take it seriously or they’re not very good at teaching, or the curriculum is terrible.[00:24:48] It really depends on the curriculum and who’s teaching it. Now I’m familiar with ABecca Books. That’s a very common curriculum for homeschoolers in my circle. [00:25:00] And I find some things that are lacking, some holes in it, but probably not as bad as the I B L P curriculum. Um, it’s not very well rounded. It’s not a comprehensive education.[00:25:15] For example, they only go up to fractions in math because all the women need are fractions to be able to cook and bake. Yeah, they don’t learn any actual science education. Creationism is the only thing that’s taught. I’m not against creationism. I actually believe in many other principles of God creating the earth.[00:25:43] Remember, I went to public school, so I was also taught evolution. I also had physics classes in actual science classes, biology classes, but [00:26:00] creationism and evolution are both theories or belief systems. You know why? Because nobody was there to be able to emphatically say how this world was created in the universe around it.[00:26:16] In my opinion, we should be presented with both theories and let us choose for ourselves. Basically the I B L P, they only give girls enough education to be mothers. They don’t go to college or have a career or even be a well-educated member of society. there’s no anatomy or physiology classes.[00:26:45] There’s no health classes or sex education. You know why? Because that would show pictures of reproductive organs. Many of the males are trained to go into the ministry, public [00:27:00] service, government, entrepreneurship, and starting businesses.[00:27:06] So what other beliefs do the I B L P hold? I will go down a little bit of a list. No tv, no radio, no pants on women. No Barbies. Now Barbies a slut? No Winnie the poo. Uh, apparently Eyore glorifies depression. No Cabbage patch dolls because they’re satanic, their creator is Warlock. in most fundamentalist household to an extent[00:27:40] A lot of them don’t have TV or very limited TV and things like that.[00:27:45] Purity culture is a huge deal, and that is mainly for the women. It is never preached to the guys to save themselves for marriage or guard their [00:28:00] thoughts or have to dress a certain way. You look at what the girls wear, they’re all the same with the big collars and the long dresses.[00:28:12] Always long hair with curls. Purity culture is pretty much the girls not wearing anything that could tempt a male. You’ve heard this before, and it gets down to the ridiculous, not just necklines or length of skirts. It’s whether they have lace on or too high of a heel or pearls on. You can’t be alone with a boy.[00:28:43] Mm-hmm. Any temptation or the boy crossing boundaries, it’s always the girl’s fault. Technically they don’t date, they have courtship. That is the boy asking the father to court [00:29:00] her, which basically means always having a chaperone. You hang out with your parents, nothing besides holding hands. They would, save their first kiss for the marriage altar, and that is seen as more holy or virtuous. And courting is very short.[00:29:23] Mainly because, well, they’re not allowed to do anything physical. Sex ed is almost nonexistent until a couple days before the wedding day. You don’t want them to get unnecessarily aroused by teaching them any sex ed. Some girls don’t even know what’s going on when her period starts. But after that, all the girls track their period so they know when they are the most fertile and when it’s time to get pregnant. Another absurd [00:30:00] practice is that they don’t allow the girls to use tampons. They claim it takes away her virginity and only a husband has a right to take her hymen. Yes, that is disgusting folks and incorrect information.[00:30:19] Once again, using tampons does not take away anybody’s virginity. Having sex with an actual person takes away virginity. This worship of virginity above all else is very damaging. A woman’s worth is not based on whether she’s a virgin or not, but her value comes from God. She is a precious creation of God, due respect and love and admiration, and does not deserve to be slut shamed for what she’s wearing [00:31:00] or whether she wants to use tampons or not.[00:31:04] But the really bothersome thing about this is, is that most girls in the I B L P have no idea how Woman gets pregnant. They think it’s from kissing, and the documentary showed Jim Bob talking to Josh about the birds and the bees before his wedding. At this point, Josh has already sexually assaulted five girls, and Josh says that I have a general idea about how all this works, and Jimbob makes a joke about it being just like Legos.[00:31:49] You know what the girls get? The girls get told how to always be available for their husbands and never to say no. They are [00:32:00] not prepared for what is going to happen on the wedding day. Many have described their experience as rape. I mean, pretty much men are told they are to conquer and women are to receive.[00:32:15] So if you have no idea what that means from the girl’s side, she is clueless about penetration. She is scared and confused and he forces himself on her because that’s what’s expected of him. He is the husband. She has to submit. We need to get pregnant fast. It doesn’t matter if the girl is in pain or needs some time, but she deals with it because that’s what she’s expected to do.[00:32:48] Have babies. Never say anything about your own needs as a woman, I am all for saving ourselves for marriage and not having [00:33:00] premarital sex, trust me. But this is taking it to an extreme. Not giving kids sex education at all just leaves them open for predators. It does not keep kids from having sex. Many of the girls have been taught never to say no to a man.[00:33:23] They have not been taught about boundaries whatsoever. So they get molested by the older boys who get them alone. And the girls are blamed for the rape. They are shamed that they did something to cause this and.[00:33:41] Their superiors. They quote a verse in the Old Testament about not crying out when you’re getting raped means that, um, she was compliant in the sexual act. And then they tell them that God allowed her to get raped [00:34:00] in order to use them. What, how can they cry out if they don’t even know what sex is? And they’re not supposed to say no to a man?[00:34:14] Well, they can’t.[00:34:17] Well, let’s talk about Josh again. Josh sexually assaulted five girls, two of which were his sisters. One of the sisters fought him off. Now, how did this all get out? Oprah apparently got a tip about the abuse. Oprah, Michelle didn’t even allow anyone to use the word molested. When the news came out about what Josh had done, they were gonna hide it from everyone and Josh was only going to confess to his wife after they got married.[00:34:56] Oh, how nice of him. They’re not allowed to get a [00:35:00] divorce. If my husband told me that he sexually assaulted five girls when he was 12, I would not have married him. That’s for sure. They can’t get a divorce, obviously, and so she’s trapped and that’s, that was on purpose. The police that talked to Josh said, we’ll let you go this time.[00:35:24] We’re really gonna give it to you later though if, if this happens again. And the police were friends with his dad, so he never got any real professional help for a 12 year old sexually abusing girls. You know what they sent him to Bill Gothard’s Boy School where he did a bunch of manual labor.[00:35:51] Jim Bob claimed that he was a changed man. Well, we’re gonna find out later that he wasn’t a changed [00:36:00] man. It was a huge coverup, minimizing the abuse in order to save the reality show. It is always about appearances, even though there are abuses going on behind the scenes. But it gets worse here, folks.[00:36:19] When you don’t fix the problem, it is just gonna fester and get bigger. So recently he had problems with pornography and you know who outed him this time? It was Ashley Madison. Uh, you don’t know what Ashley Madison is. It’s a, uh, it’s a website for people who wanna cheat on their spouse, but they don’t wanna get caught and they give you like tips on how not to get caught and people hook up and meet each other on this site.[00:36:56] So Ashley Madison outed him in an [00:37:00] affair with a porn star. he had porn on his work computer. So they were really great about getting Josh some accountability software that it keeps you from accessing porn. And Josh was so tech savvy that he figured out how to bypass the accountability software. He had two hard drives or something.[00:37:26] I don’t know anything about that stuff. But he is in prison, I think for 12 years, for having and sharing child pornography. And from what I understand folks, it is babies. It is very young, children being raped and tortured, unspeakable things done to these children. This is no joke. He didn’t accidentally fall upon this.[00:37:57] He didn’t just, oh, I, you [00:38:00] know, accidentally went on this site and there it was. No. He deceived people. He lied, he cheated. He went out of his way to hide this. He overrode safety protocols that kept him from that stuff. And even the porn star that was interviewed, she said that although it was consensual, the sex was almost like a rape.[00:38:29] It was very violent. Yet people were begging the judge to be lenient for him. People like Mike Huckabee defending him, he’s somebody that I used to respect. Nope, not anymore. He’s definitely on my poop list now. He claims that anyone can make a mistake and we have to forgive him. Oh yeah. Tell that to the children who are sexually abused in those[00:38:59] [00:39:00] videos whose lives were changed forever. Tell that to the sisters that he assaulted and her and their friends. Gimme a break. Don’t defend somebody like this.[00:39:15] This was not an accident.[00:39:18] So let’s move on to another principle in the I B L P is called the umbrella of protection. It’s a hierarchy of order of submission. You’ve got god, pastor, husband, wife, children in that order, and they actually believe if you submit to the authority above you, then nothing bad can happen to you. If you don’t submit, then the devil will come and destroy your life and really, really bad things will happen.[00:39:52] Now, God never promises that our lives will be roses and sunshine or that we will never [00:40:00] experience anything bad in our lives, even if we’re following God perfectly. Look at the people in the Bible. If you have a pulse and breath in your lungs, you are going to have trials problems, even if you’ve done nothing wrong.[00:40:19] This world is evil. Now, should we obey the Lord? Of course,[00:40:26] God, gives us commands because that is what’s best for us, right? Now, if you’re going around breaking commandments, there are natural consequences for that, right? You steal, you’re gonna go to jail. If you smoke cigarettes, you’re gonna get cancer. If you’re gonna have sex before marriage, sleeping around, unprotected, you’re gonna get pregnant or you’re gonna get a venereal disease if you keep that up.[00:40:58] There are natural [00:41:00] consequences for not following the laws of God, it is for our protection. There’s a verse, and I believe, is it Proverbs or Psalms? I didn’t look it up, but it says, the way of the transgressor is hard. Yes, your life’s gonna be a whole lot more complicated and worse if you’re out there.[00:41:19] Willfully sinning. Okay. But again, that the IBLP wants blind obedience from everyone in the hierarchy. The husband listens to the pastor, which in this case would be Gothard. The wife listens to the husband. the children listen to their in this group, the wife has no access to God directly, and she’s not an equal partner in the marriage.[00:41:46] Her job is to submit and have babies. This is unbiblical and the distortion of what God’s design for marriage is. Now, if you actually study the Bible carefully, you will see that men and women are [00:42:00] equal partners in marriage submitting to one another in love, raising their children in love. The priesthood of believers is for each family, each person, each person in that family answers for himself to God in eternity.[00:42:22] Yes, the husband answers for the family, but the pastor is not the final authority. He is a shepherd. An example, and he’s supposed to point you to God, not to himself or his own teachings. That’s the difference.[00:42:42] Let’s talk about Gothard for a hot minute here. He created these basic seminars on how to get married, raise a family, and change the world.[00:42:54] He wrote the homeschool curriculum called The Wisdom Booklets. [00:43:00] Many people were attracted to his teaching because he promised all the answers. Well behaving children, he was a dynamic speaker, just like a lot of cult leaders are.[00:43:16] It costs a lot of money for the seminars and curriculum and institutes. He made a lot of money off of this and had lots of property and assets, and he lives pretty high off the hog folks. Planes, pools, cars, houses. He even figured out how to get government funding. I have no idea how he pulled that off.[00:43:41] The funny thing was he never married and never had children, as far as we know. Anyway, he was accused by 37 women of sexual harassment, which included rape. [00:44:00] He had been bringing pretty girls up to his headquarters, which was like winning the lottery to them, but many girls reported his roving hands, inappropriate touching and full on rape.[00:44:16] He would tell them his authority exceeded their fathers, and he took advantage of that. He has plenty of money to fight with when he was being charged, lawsuits were dismissed because of statute of limitations had passed. Gothard stepped down and Dugger took his place, it seems. Who else? Right? Supposedly Gothard’s materials and curriculum are not[00:44:48] officially taught anymore, but they are sold as Bible studies. The wake of abuse and trauma he left behind in his legacy [00:45:00] have damaged countless lives.[00:45:04] This is all very disturbing if you’ve never heard this before, I am further along in my healing journey than maybe many of you. I left fundamentalism in 2008. Those of you who suffered this fresh in this cult, you may be wondering how do you heal from such a traumatic and abusive religion? I will tell you.[00:45:34] It took a long time for the thinking patterns to leave me. The outside stuff was easy, you know, changing my clothes, for instance, I didn’t worn a pair of pants in good grief, 15 years. The internal stuff is not so easy, but I’m gonna list some things here that helped me. this may be [00:46:00] different for you, depending on your specific situation/ when I could do a podcast episode on each of these points, but I’m just gonna summarize them for times sake.[00:46:15] Um, but I talk about these things all the time on the podcast. So, you know, I would invite you to come back and listen to the podcast, the other episodes and some of the guests I have. So number one, in healing from this kind of horrible religious group, you have to remove yourself from the abusive environment as much as humanly possible.[00:46:44] You cannot heal when you are still knee deep in the abuse. Now this will mean a hard cutting off from your previous church, changing your phone number, moving, finding new friends. [00:47:00] Stay off of social media, block people on your phone and social media who are not supportive of you leaving.[00:47:12] Is it easy? No, it is not easy. You must create a new support system. You will not be able to see the abuse for what it is without separation. You cannot see the forest for the trees.[00:47:30] Number two, it’s okay to examine your faith and what you believe. It’s okay to take a break from going to services to examine your beliefs, but know this folks, that the God of fundamentalist Christians, the I B L P cult is not the God of the Bible, is not [00:48:00] the real Jesus in the Bible.[00:48:02] Don’t throw away God. Take time to find out who he is. He’s there waiting for you. That’s what this podcast is for. We talk about these struggles with our faith. It’s okay to ask those questions when you get brave. Then you can ask around for another church to try, try different denomination. Start slow. Uh, you can even go online and watch church services to get a feel for what their beliefs are.[00:48:44] What kind of culture do they have. Number three, if you are able get professional trauma counseling by someone licensed in your state or country. [00:49:00] I don’t mean Christian counseling by a pastor. You have survived a cult and you need someone outside of the situation that is trained in mind control abuses and trauma. Pastors are not trained in this, no matter how supportive they are.[00:49:22] And if your children came out of the cult, I would prioritize therapy for them. Most insurance plans cover counseling for a number of sessions. Take these sessions seriously and do the work to make progress. I know a lot of employers have employee assistance programs, so look into that if you, have a job of, of any sort.[00:49:53] Number four, if you’re not able to afford therapy, I would [00:50:00] recommend joining a Mending the Soul group. It is led by laypersons. who are trained, they are survivors themselves, and it’s a group of four with the facilitators and it’s confidential. You go through these healing modules designed by a professional trauma counselor.[00:50:24] Now, it doesn’t replace counseling, but it is better than no help at all. And to join a group is free. So go on to Mending the Soul.org to find a group in your area. I am finished doing my groups for the year, but I can get you with somebody that’s starting their group shortly.[00:50:49] Number five, explore what it is that you enjoy.[00:50:55] What music do you like to listen to? What clothes do you want to [00:51:00] wear, careers that you are interested in? I remember the feeling of picking out my own furniture for the first time and renting my own apartment, making my own choices instead of somebody making them for me. Enjoy that process and take your time and examine what do you really want.[00:51:28] Number six, if you are able get checked out by a MD for any health issues. Don’t be afraid to take medication that your doctor gives you, such as sleep aids or antidepressants. There is no shame or sin in that. These are made to help you get in, uh, to transition from one stage of life to another.[00:51:58] It’s a stressful time for [00:52:00] you right now, but it won’t be forever. Okay? I know that I B L P, um, doesn’t believe in doctors apparently, when the doctors are there to help you.[00:52:11] Number seven, do a lot of research on what a cult is and how people get sucked into cults. Mind control coercion, et cetera.[00:52:23] Steven Hassan is a cult expert. He has, um, excellent resources on his website. A little bit culty podcast covers those kind of topics about every kind of cult you can think of. What makes a cult. and you’ll see that they all have the same, foundational things, just a different flavor.[00:52:53] Speaking out on sex abuse podcast is awesome. It will help identify what you have been through [00:53:00] and give it names. You know what gaslighting is. I didn’t know what gaslighting was until I got out. Didn’t know what boundaries were. all kinds of stuff.[00:53:13] Number eight, if you are single or divorced, I recommend that you don’t date right away.[00:53:20] Now hear me out. You need to take time to process and heal from your trauma. First, find out who you are. Stay off those dating apps, please. I learned the hard way that I am very vulnerable after a divorce or leaving, uh, a cult or even like a death in the family. And there are loads of predators on those dating apps.[00:53:48] They’re just waiting to pounce on somebody who doesn’t know any better and who they can, victimize. Make some solid friends first before you start dating. [00:54:00] And I know most of you listening aren’t gonna listen to me, but I’ve said it, your friend Diana told you ahead of time. I hope that you’ll take my advice.[00:54:10] Number nine. In exploring your life, avoid drinking alcohol and other addictive behaviors. some survivors just go the opposite direction when they come out of these restrictive religions. They go partying, they drink a lot of alcohol. Oh, let’s try some pot. Let’s, get into a fast car and go drag racing.[00:54:34] I don’t know. But adding alcoholism and drug addiction to your problems is going to make everything way worse. And I’m not against drinking alcohol in general. just not getting drunk, not using it to avoid dealing with your problems and your trauma. I know that it’s painful and it’s gonna be hard to get through this.[00:55:00][00:55:00] Trust me. Numbing it with drinking that’s not gonna help you heal.[00:55:05] The last one. Number 10, be kind to yourself. Be patient. Give yourselves some grace. Leave behind that misplaced guilt. Just leave it. Healing is a journey, and it won’t happen overnight, but it will happen.[00:55:29] I’m going to end with a poem I read today from Emily Elizabeth Anderson,[00:55:39] actually, joy Harris, posted this on, Facebook today, and I thought it was absolutely fabulous[00:55:48] Emily Elizabeth Anderson has a ministry called Thriving Forward. She does a lot of the same things that I do, helping people to heal from,[00:56:00] these kind of abuses, especially spiritual abuse. Okay, so it’s called an open letter to the Evangelical Church.[00:56:09] I’m a follower of Jesus, but not because of you.[00:56:14] You see, I grew up within your four walls. My family never missed a Sunday. I wore the long dresses and never cut my hair. I made sure to always smile and never complain. I stayed away from outsiders. I sheltered myself from any hint of the world. But by the time I reached adulthood, drowning under the crushing weight of the fear-based teaching you placed upon me, I realized that I didn’t know who Jesus was.[00:56:50] You see, you spent 25 years telling me how to act like a Christian, but you never taught me about Jesus. You taught [00:57:00] me that only real Christians practiced courtship, conceived their first kiss for marriage. Only real Christians wore head coverings and made sure their knees and shoulders were never exposed.[00:57:15] Only real Christians avoided rock music and tattoos. Only real Christians read their Bible every single day and handed out gospel tracks three times a week. Only real Christians never get divorced. You taught me all about God’s wrath. How if I stepped a toe out of line, he would be equipped to punish me, severe illness, rape, financial ruin.[00:57:45] And now, years later, after trying and then failing to follow all of your rules, almost leading me to lose my faith entirely, I’m hearing countless others asking the same questions I once [00:58:00] wrestled with. Why are marriages failing despite practicing fail-proof courtship? Why are one in four of us sexually abused despite following your modesty message?[00:58:17] Why do you continue to protect the abusers in our lives while shunning us, who dare bring evil actions to light? Why are we still plagued with chronic illness, despite saying countless prayers? Why do we often experience far less love in the body of Christ than in the non-believing community around us?[00:58:42] Once faithful members are crying out? What about us? What now? You taught us legalistic rules instead of the gospel. You taught us bondage instead of freedom, you sheltered us from the very world Jesus commands his [00:59:00] followers to go out into by drilling fear into our minds. You didn’t point us to Jesus. No.[00:59:10] The tragedy dear church, is not that people are leaving the church in droves. The real tragedy is that by starving your people of the true message of the gospel, you have nearly fatality wounded, your once most devoted followers, and then left us with no one to turn to because we’re told Jesus doesn’t wanna see our mess.[00:59:39] The true gospel message must include broken people, but you were too concerned about appearances to allow people to be broken. You were too concerned about protecting wolves that you forgot about defending your sheep. But thankfully, even when you disowned us, Jesus [01:00:00] did not.[01:00:00] Even when you shunned me, Jesus did not.[01:00:05] When you told me that because of my history of sexual abuse, I was a chewed up piece of gum and no man would want me. Jesus told me that my worth was not defined[01:00:20] by my sexual history.[01:00:22] When you told me that my chronic illness was a result of not forgiving my abuser, Jesus comforted me[01:00:29] and told me that my body, having a natural reaction to abuse was not a sin. When you told me that I was the cause of a man’s lust, Jesus told me.[01:00:42] Jesus told me that I wasn’t responsible for someone else’s choices.[01:00:47] When you told me that depression was evidence of lack of faith, Jesus pulled me in tighter and assured me[01:00:55] That nothing could separate me from his love.[01:00:59] When you told [01:01:00] me that God hates divorce, Jesus told me that he hates the abuse that forces victims to flee to safety even more. When you told me that we need to protect the name of Christianity by burying scandals, Jesus told me. That he can defend his own name and to expose any darkness. When you told me to stay sweet, Jesus told me to start flipping tables.[01:01:27] You see, church, you may have failed me, but Jesus didn’t. You may have rejected me when I started to ask questions, but Jesus never let me go. So I ask you, church, will you turn away from your whitewash piety? Are you willing to cast out the wolves in your pews and pulpits that you’ve given sanctuary to and offer justice in mercy[01:01:55] towards survivors?[01:01:57] Are you willing to take a stand for the oppressed, [01:02:00] for the vulnerable, and for the abused? Are you willing to see the disabled in your community as equal image bearers of Christ? Are you willing to leave behind the chains of legalism and preach the radical freedom of the resurrected Christ? Are you willing to end the deception of flashy and empty promises, and instead comfort people in the midst of their raw grief and pain?[01:02:30] Are you willing to start following Jesus? Because until you are willing, you will find more and more of your pews empty. Not because your parishioners left the faith, but because they were looking for hope outside of your walls and finally found Jesus.[01:02:53] That’s Powerful and thank you Emily for, for writing that.[01:02:59] [01:03:00] But that makes you feel validated when somebody is sticking up for you like that. When somebody understands what you’ve gone through and she has gone through the, the whole I B L P thing. Maybe I’ll ask her if she wants to come on the show. so I’m leaving you with that. I, uh, didn’t expect to get emotional reading that to you.[01:03:25] I had read it a couple times already, and,[01:03:29] , you know,[01:03:29] what you see is what you get. I’m a real person with real feelings, and I understand exactly what this stuff means. I’m just gonna be me and be authentic and raw and vulnerable for you guys. And I believe that, it helps people.[01:03:52] I pray that it gives you hope, you can get out, that you don’t need to be treated this way. And if you need help, reach out [01:04:00] for help. I am here for you and[01:04:02] I pray that, that you’ll look to Jesus, the real Jesus for the answer, pray and ask him to show himself to you, and he will, as he has shown many of us who he is. I will see you next week. Thank you for being here with me and your prayers for my surgery.[01:04:27] God bless you. Bye for now.[01:04:30] Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you’ll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.