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How do you have better relationships after experiencing only toxic ones? How do you date again and stop choosing the wrong people? Our expert therapist Shannon Petrovich is here to answer those questions and more. We had very informative conversation about contemporary topics, such as, mental health issues and the Church, finding our self-worth, practicing positive self-talk, and all about the creep-o-meter! We also get to hear about her new book, Out of the FOG Into the CLEAR!
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Home | No Foggy Days | Out of the FOG Into the CLEAR
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Biography:
Therapist, Author, YouTube creator,
Shannon earned her Bachelor’s degree from Bowdoin College, and her Master’s in Social Work from the University of Connecticut. She earned her clinical licenses in Social Work and Substance Abuse Counseling, and is a Board Certified Diplomate in Clinical Social Work.
Her new book, Out of the FOG Into the CLEAR, Journaling to Help You Heal from Toxic Relationships has attained Amazon Bestseller status in Self Help for Abuse, Codependency, and Personal Transformation.
On her YouTube channel Therapist Talks, she shares insights, information, perspectives, and strategies on a wide range of relationship and mental health topics.
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Transcript:
Shannon Petrovich
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. Brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, Diana Winkler. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. [00:00:25] Now here is Diana. [00:00:29] Diana Winkler: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the show. Come on in. How’s life treating you? [00:00:35] I wanted to ask if you had any prayer requests, because I feel that’s important. It’s always a privilege to pray for you, so message me the usual ways that are always in the show notes for you. Got email, you can private message me on any of the social medias, carrier pigeon. [00:00:59] [00:01:00] I mean, I’ve got lots of pigeons in my yard. I’m gonna put them to work here soon to earn their keep in bird seed. So for us here, we have a couple request. Brian’s temporary disability payments have stopped, and we have to appeal that after going back to the doctors and having them fill out more forms. [00:01:26] If you’ve ever applied for disability benefits, it is a long and frustrating process, [00:01:34] so pray for us in that regard. Send me your request. I have my prayer list with me every morning at breakfast. [00:01:44] Now we have a wonderful guest for you today. We have a licensed professional therapist. [00:01:51] I’d love to have therapists on here to give you all the resources that can help you in your healing. Our guest has a great [00:02:00] YouTube channel listened to also. We have Shannon Petrovich today. And let’s read a little bit about her on her bio. Shannon earned her bachelor’s degree from Bodoin College and her Master’s in Social work from the University of Connecticut. [00:02:19] She earned her clinical licenses in social work and substance abuse counseling and is a board certified diplomat in clinical social work. Her new book, Out of the Fog into the Clear: Journaling to Help You Heal from Toxic Relationships, has attained Amazon bestseller status in self-help for abuse, codependency, and personal transformation. [00:02:48] So on her YouTube channel. Therapist Talks. She shares insights, information, perspectives and strategies on a wide [00:03:00] range of relationship and mental health topics. So definitely check that out. Was really glad she reached out to me because she talks about journaling and we are all about journaling on the podcast and part of my Mending The Soul Group, the workbook, we have a lot of journaling in that, our small groups that we put on. [00:03:28] That’s a really important part of healing. And so I’m glad to offer you another resource that can help you and. With So without further ado, enjoy my conversation with Shannon Petrovich. Here she is. [00:03:45] Please welcome Shannon and Petrovich to the show. [00:03:49] Shannon Petrovich: Thanks, Diana. It’s great to [00:03:50] Diana Winkler: be here. Well, I’m so glad you reached out to me on Pod Match. I really like having therapists on the show to give [00:04:00] folks resources to help them heal and their abuse and trauma I saw you had a YouTube channel and with some really helpful topics. [00:04:10] Thanks [00:04:10] Shannon Petrovich: Diana. [00:04:10] Diana Winkler: So I heard that that God comes first. And your husband’s your best friend and you have a beautiful family. [00:04:20] Tell us more about that. [00:04:23] Shannon Petrovich: Well, of course God comes first in my life, and that has not always been the case, but it certainly has been for a number of years and I think it’s really important that we keep our priorities straight. It’s been a difficult journey though, and and I think that God’s brought me through all of it, and so I just have intense humility and gratitude for that. [00:04:46] I’ve been married my current marriage for 12 years. My first husband passed away and that was a really hard time, but also a time that God brought me closer to him and that was, the silver [00:05:00] lining and all of that. And I think sometimes that we need to go through hard times in order to come closer to God, and that was really what happened there. [00:05:09] And then, he brought me this beautiful, amazing, godly man, and we’ve been extremely happy for the last 12 years. So I feel very blessed. We have a cadre of kids and grandkids and blendedness and that’s really wonderful [00:05:24] Diana Winkler: too. Is that a dog I see hiding under the desk ? [00:05:29] Shannon Petrovich: There’s two of them in here. [00:05:30] Actually. I keep them in here while I’m interviewing because otherwise if the Amazon guy comes, then they’ll blow up . If they’re in here, they’ll pass out and they’ll be quiet. [00:05:43] Diana Winkler: I love dogs. [00:05:46] Shannon Petrovich: They’re. They’re my buddies. [00:05:48] Diana Winkler: So you’re a licensed professional therapist. What was your background before you were a therapist? Growing up? [00:05:58] Shannon Petrovich: I really thought I would be a [00:06:00] veterinarian or a doctor growing up and then in college, I kind of started to recognize that wasn’t my cup of tea and it wasn’t really what I was called to do. [00:06:10] And I really had an intrigue for how people worked and how internally they worked and how relationships worked and didn’t work. And I really was curious about it and hungry to learn. I volunteered in a domestic violence shelter after college. I really felt like there was a lot that I didn’t understand about what was going on in, in those toxic relationships and abusive relationships, and nor did I understand how to help the women and children that we were working with. [00:06:42] So, that’s what drove me to graduate school and getting my master’s degree in social work and licenses and all that. And then I’ve been a therapist for 35 years. Wow. [00:06:55] Diana Winkler: I loved how you were gonna help somebody [00:07:00] regardless of if you had a license or not. You just went in there and started with helping the kids, and then you wanna do more. [00:07:10] I like to talk about this on the show because there’s a lot of labels out there and people get confused with them. Like what’s the difference between a licensed therapist, like a psychiatrist? And a life coach . [00:07:26] Shannon Petrovich: Okay. So a psychiatrist is a medical doctor, first and foremost. [00:07:31] So they go all the way through medical school and then they do their residency and fellowship and all of that in psychiatry. So they are licensed to give medications to do full psychiatric assessments and evaluations and manage medications. A licensed clinical social worker like myself is a therapist and so we really do that type of talk therapy. [00:07:55] And helping people with information and strategies and [00:08:00] perspectives to help people work through their issues. So it’s very different. And then the life coaching thing has come out round in the past number of years, and it’s more of a life coaching. So, as a therapist, we have a lot of training in in really understanding so many different aspects of personal growth and personal in clinical issues, in diagnostics. We’re licensed to diagnose someone and to treat someone. [00:08:31] Whereas a life coach is really kind of helping you identify your goals and then helping you seek out your goals and see what’s in your way. So it’s a more simple kind of approach. [00:08:43] Diana Winkler: Well, I’m glad you differentiated those because I’m finding that pretty much anybody can put a sign out on the mantle, so to speak, that I’m a life coach. [00:08:55] Shannon Petrovich: And that’s true. [00:08:55] There isn’t any real licensing or management of that. Not [00:09:00] that there aren’t some wonderful life coaches out there, but yes, if you need a therapist, you need to seek out a therapist. [00:09:07] Diana Winkler: Need to know the differences and what they can and cannot do. Right. So now on the Christian side I’ve heard this from survivors, is that they get a lot of pushback, being a Christian. [00:09:22] A person of faith going to church and that they’re told that going to a therapist or psychiatrist is a sin. And reading the Bible and praying is enough. I mean, you as a Christian and a professional therapist, what are your thoughts on that? [00:09:40] Shannon Petrovich: think that I understand where they’re coming from, but I it would be similar to if your leg was broken just praying over it and that there are some people who believe that’s what you do. [00:09:51] But for me, I believe that God gave us, All, a lot of education and information for a reason, and he [00:10:00] gives each of us a calling to be his hands and feet. And so there are times when prayer helps and there are times when you need to go get your leg fixed or your heart and soul and mind fixed with some help from somebody who does that for a living. [00:10:16] and has a lot of experience and education in that. So I think it’s sad when someone needs something and is told by someone that they shouldn’t seek that out or they should be able to get over it. When someone has severe depression it and if they need medication and really intensive therapy or they have trauma and they need intensive therapy and medication. [00:10:39] It’s really sad when someone takes that away from them by shaming them about it cuz they’re dealing with enough shame already and enough hardship already. So I think it’s extremely necessary for a lot of situations and and I think it’s a shame when people are told that they shouldn’t have that. [00:10:57] Yeah, I’ve even heard pastors [00:11:00] speak out about it. I’ve heard pastors who go into burnout and depression and speak out about the fact that they were shamed and blamed so much for so long that they didn’t seek help until they were extremely severe and almost suicidal. Or suicidal. [00:11:16] And so I think that. Just really speaks to that being a really ineffective and unfair and uncaring way to treat people. [00:11:25] Diana Winkler: Yeah. I see it all the time, Shannon, and it makes me so angry. And my ex-husband who was my abuser, he had mental illness and he tried to commit suicide, and I had no idea [00:11:39] how to treat mental health issues or get him help because, depression’s a sin, taking medications a sin and I didn’t even call 9 1 1. And it was just to kind of pushed down under the rug. And so yeah I’m I’m glad to have people on the show like yourself, that takes such shame away. [00:11:58] Depression and [00:12:00] anxiety. Those are chemical imbalances in the brain that medication can help. There’s no shame in [00:12:05] Shannon Petrovich: that. [00:12:06] Right. And they, the trauma that people experience causes the imbalance in the brain to that results in depression and anxiety oftentimes. So it is a tumble down a dark hill, and it’s really important that people recognize that, God gave us this ability to have a surge of adrenaline to our brain when something is very dangerous, and it gives us that ability to fight, flight, or freeze. [00:12:35] But if you have that constantly because you’re living in an abusive situation or in a toxic relationship of any sort, then you are basically drinking that poison of that adrenaline search constantly, and it depletes your serotonin, your endorphin, your gaba, so that you then have more anxiety, more depression over time. [00:12:57] It can create such a [00:13:00] situation that you can’t get out from under that without medication. Sometimes people can, but it’s, it becomes a physiological reality from the trauma and abuse. [00:13:11] Diana Winkler: No I was really intrigued by your new book Out of the Fog into the Clear. Journaling to help you heal from toxic relationships. [00:13:22] We’re all about journaling here. Tell us about your book. [00:13:27] Shannon Petrovich: Yeah, thanks Diana. I, about four or five years ago, I decided I really wanted to share more of the information that I’ve gathered over the years with a wider group of people. [00:13:38] And so I started the YouTube channel therapist talks and over those, Three or four years, right away people were asking more and more about abusive relationships and particularly narcissistic and toxic relationships. So that became the main focus in a lot of my videos. And then over the past year, I [00:14:00] recognized that I couldn’t give enough information in a 10 minute video to help. [00:14:06] Or even in my hour long live streams every other week to help people really get well. And so I wanted it to be a self-help book that would give people the information and strategies and the journal prompts that they need to really walk through the whole process of getting clear of something like that and getting well, and really rebuilding them, their sense of self and their sense of connectedness and their lives. [00:14:35] So [00:14:35] Diana Winkler: you could use that alongside a therapist or somebody you trust, right? [00:14:42] Shannon Petrovich: Right. I designed it to be either in adjunct with therapists or recognizing that not millions of people in the world don’t have access to a therapist that you could do. They walk it through with somebody that you trusted or even on your own. [00:14:59] And some people [00:15:00] don’t like to journal, so you can use those journal prompts as questions to answer for yourself, but it really starts with the toxic relationship that we most of us have within our own minds, where we are very harsh with ourselves, we beat ourselves up mercilessly when we are having a hard time when we make a mistake. [00:15:19] We’re very condemning and those kinds of things said to ourselves inside our own heads 40,000 times a day, it’s extremely toxic. So we have to address that first and become more self-compassionate and really understand our sense of self much better. Cause then our culture. A sense of self is very confused these days that it often has to do with appearances and superficial things and not our character qualities and our values. [00:15:54] And so when you focus in on your character qualities and your values, then you can [00:16:00] have a better and healthier sense of self and you can combat those old stories that are in your head that are beating you up. From there, you can work through all of the things that happened in the relationship and start to get free and clear of that relationship. [00:16:19] Diana Winkler: Now, self love seems to be like suppressed in Christianity in general. Do you think so? [00:16:27] Shannon Petrovich: I do, and it’s confusing because I do understand that self love. That confusing. So we don’t want to love ourselves above God. We want to first and foremost love God. And we love because he loved us first. [00:16:44] And we are forgiving because he forgave us first. And so all of that, Stems from the source. So we have to start there. But we do have to be caring and compassionate towards ourselves because he didn’t create us to[00:17:00] self destruct. He doesn’t want us to hate ourselves and destroy ourselves. [00:17:06] And yet that’s a lot of times what we have trained ourselves to do. And sometimes even shaming and condemning messages in some churches can be fueling that fire. And so we wanna make sure we get clear of that too. But it’s very much a, if you stay in that right sized relationship with God first, then you do need to have self love. [00:17:30] But it’s not self love above God. It’s caring and loving the creation that he made you to be. [00:17:38] Diana Winkler: I think, they got this tagline, Jesus, others and you. And that’s a good, that’s a good motto. But I think in the church, especially women, it’s like, I’m always doing something for others. I’m always giving of myself and serving others and then we go and we neglect ourself and that’s [00:17:58] Shannon Petrovich: a problem.[00:18:00] [00:18:00] Yeah, so true. We are really trained to to take care of everybody else first. And I don’t think we can pour water from an empty pitcher. We have to recharge and replenish and re rejuvenate and restore ourselves through prayer and meditation and then, and self care. We can’t neglect ourselves and think that [00:18:21] what God wants us to do, and he doesn’t want us to be all into legalism and service without being in relationship with him first. So I think we get upside down a lot in the church and I think it’s very tricky. But overall, I believe that we are called to, to take care of this being that God created us to be. [00:18:44] And I think, he gave us qualities that he wants us to live out. He gave us each a mission within our own little sphere of the world. And I think that’s pleasing to God when we’re living that. [00:19:00] And, [00:19:00] Diana Winkler: I heard you talk about, okay, self love means that you establish boundaries for yourself, especially in a domestic violence situation. [00:19:11] Something no one’s ever said before: okay, there’s time to establish boundaries, and then, over here, you need to get out now. It’s past establishing boundaries. You need to get out. How? How do you know the difference? [00:19:26] Shannon Petrovich: For sure if there’s physical abuse, it’s a get out now situation. [00:19:31] The body is the whole temple of the Holy Spirit, and we are not meant to let it be destroyed by somebody else. That is not God’s love in action at all. So if there’s physical abuse, I think you have to get out immediately. Call 9 1 1. Don’t feel guilty. Don’t feel like you started it and then he’s gonna get in trouble. [00:19:51] Or you have to just take care of yourself and get out, and then know that you’re gonna feel empty and sad and torn [00:20:00] up. And you’re going to probably on some level want to repair it and run back. And the problem is that we are oftentimes so emptied out of our sense of self and sense of our lives that we feel completely adrift when we leave that relationship. [00:20:19] And so we are very much at risk for going back. So it’s really important that when you leave, then you start to refill and get involved in your life, get re-involved with your connections. Recognize. The person that God created you to be so that you can rebuild. And when you do that, then you fill yourself up, then you’re not as likely to feel so empty and run back into the relationship. [00:20:44] But very much over the course of a, an abusive relationship, part of what’s happening is that they are causing and forcing and. And insisting on you, being completely focused on them, their needs, their wants, their [00:21:00] feelings, their moods, their emotions. And so, whenever they throw a little bit of a tantrum, then you run and placate and peace keep. [00:21:08] And so over time you hardly know what you’re feeling or thinking or wanting or needing. And that’s the other piece of why it’s so empty when you leave. So that’s why it’s so important to recognize it’s normal to feel that emptiness. It’s normal to even wanna go back. And it’s healthy to use your wise mind, your rational mind to line up the facts. [00:21:32] Know that your heart is going to still be very much attached to this person, but because this person has done this, and this, and they have been abusive and negligent and harsh and cruel and all of these things that you have to look at those facts, keep those facts first and foremost, and leave. [00:21:53] Diana Winkler: Oh yeah. The leaving part, and I was guilty of this when I left my abuser, is that I jumped [00:22:00] immediately into the dating apps, which didn’t exist when I was single before. And I heard you talk about another podcast is the creep o meter in dating. So tell us about the creep o meter. [00:22:15] Shannon Petrovich: So we have to sort of know ourselves well enough to know when our creepo meter goes off and if we do the work between relationships and really take care of ourselves and really get stronger and not [00:22:29] be wanting to jump into another relationship, then we will have a better creepo meter on board and we can see, gosh, that guy says this, but when his actions say that. And he says something else, but then he is laughing at other people’s pain. Or he treats this person disrespectfully and he’s, he is just unkind and uncaring, and he says he is interested in me, but then if I say, Hey, I need a little space, then he immediately throws a little [00:23:00] fit and then runs off, And then gives me a hard time about it. [00:23:03] So you have to recognize that for you to be in a relationship, in a healthy way, the other person has to really want you to fully exist in that relationship. All your feelings, moods, thoughts, emotions, wants and needs, they have to exist too. If that person is all about themselves, then you need to recognize that’s not for you. [00:23:26] That’s not the way God intended relationships to be. If the love and respect isn’t there, it’s not there and don’t try to make it there. But we tend, especially as women, to wanna placate peace keep, and people please. And so we have to get rid of all that. We have to tell the truth in love, which is, straight outta the book of James. [00:23:50] We have to recognize what we do feel, think, need, and want, and say that. And if there’s no respect for that, [00:24:00] then you have to keep on trucking. And then the aspect of the other thing that’s really important is that, Intimacy early on in a relationship will derail your creep o meter, completely. [00:24:14] And so, God’s way is the best way. And I think that’s extremely important that we give ourselves the time and space and really get to know somebody so much for so long. You feel like you totally know and trust this person. And I do believe in marriage. [00:24:30] And so, my husband and I were married, before we had intimacy. And I think it was really important in our lives and in our marriage because we established a full foundation of trust and knowledge of each other. And I just really believe that God’s way is the best way. [00:24:48] Yeah. [00:24:49] Diana Winkler: I .Recognize all the mistakes that I made. And I recommend to all of my peeps to wait like a year before [00:25:00] going out there and date, and I know they don’t listen to me. Ah, what do you think? Is that too [00:25:07] Shannon Petrovich: long? Yeah, I think it, it take the time it takes because for some people, year is right. For some people that’s not enough. [00:25:16] And I think that it depends on how you’re doing in your own self care, in your own journey. But I think it’s good to have other people to bounce things off of and to ask friends for feedback, trusted friends for feedback, and know when it’s time to let yourself get to know somebody, and always take it into prayer first. [00:25:38] I met my husband, not very long after my late husband passed away and I was not ready to date. And I just told him. And my current husband was super wonderful and loving and said, Well, let’s just, get to know each other. And so we went hiking and biking and we’d see each other once or twice a week. [00:25:58] And so it was very casual and [00:26:00] we just took our time getting to know each other. And then when I was more ready then I let him know. And, but it was so beautiful and organic the way it all unfolded. But if he had at any point, had his own selfish agenda, it would’ve been really clear to me and I would’ve said goodbye. [00:26:18] So I think it’s really important that you feel good enough about yourself, that you don’t get sucked into somebody else’s agenda or somebody else’s timeline, and honor what you need. [00:26:30] Diana Winkler: Yeah that’s great. Great advice. I had to kiss a lot of frogs. Unfortunately, if I met my current husband. We both had a bunch of train wreck relationships that were really horrible, toxic things. [00:26:44] But the Lord did bring us together during the right time. And there are some good guys and gals out there that will wait for the right time. That’s a neat story. [00:27:00] So what can we do to make ourselves feel better about ourselves and have healthier relationships? [00:27:08] Shannon Petrovich: I think recognizing first and foremost that we, the way we treat ourselves inside our own heads is crucial, and we have to be aware of that first. [00:27:18] So a lot of times people aren’t even aware of how harsh they are inside their own heads. And when I first meet with a client, we talk about that and I ask about that. A lot of people have no awareness of it, or they diminish the importance of that, or they think it’s just normal, but it’s not normal. [00:27:36] It’s not healthy. We’re not born that way. We’re not born hating ourselves and running ourselves down and being harsh and critical with ourselves. So we have to fix that first. We have to bring that into balance so that we have an accurate sense of who we are, that we’re working towards living our values but that we’re not harsh and cruel. [00:27:59] That [00:28:00] we’re self encouraging instead. And then we have to be truthful in our relationships and stop all the people pleasing and placating so that we can take ownership of real boundaries. And real boundaries are just really simple things like, when you’re being harsher or cruel or mean. [00:28:17] Or like that, I’m gonna hang up the phone, I’m gonna leave the house, or I’m going to whatever. And when you take care of yourself on those levels, Somebody who is interested in having a real relationship with you will say, Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean that. I didn’t realize I was doing that. And they will correct themselves. [00:28:38] Somebody who isn’t interested in that will escalate and you’ll know for sure that you can’t have a relationship with that person. So, the truth and boundaries and self care. And and then when you have conflicts with people, really taking it into prayer and meditation and asking for guidance from God so that you [00:29:00] have a more godly approach to things. [00:29:02] And because I think it’s a pretty fallen world that we’re living in, and it’s difficult to keep our heads above the fray. And look at things from God’s perspective. [00:29:15] Diana Winkler: Yeah, it’s hard to get rid of the self-sabotaging thoughts. What would be a self-sabotaging thought and what would be the correct way to think about that thought instead? [00:29:29] Shannon Petrovich: Well, typically, the thing to ask yourself is what happens when I make a mistake? Do you call yourself, Oh, I’m such an idiot. Oh, I’m such a loser. I’m such a failure. So the correct thought was, Wow, I’m really struggling with this. Wow, what can I do differently? And then encouraging yourself to do whatever you need to do to kind of move forward or step back. [00:29:55] Sometimes we are driving ourselves so hard and so [00:30:00] harshly that we are literally burning ourselves out. and we need to take a step back and regroup and recognize what we can do and what we can’t do. And if we’re trying to overdo, then we need to stop, and we need to know when to say no. [00:30:17] Diana Winkler: You must know me or can read me like a book because I’m a type A and I’m a perfectionist, and I hate making mistakes, and I’m so hard on myself when I make a mistake, but I’m learning to, okay, just give yourself a break. It’s not that big of a deal. You can fix the mistake. [00:30:38] Especially with my music, it’s like it’s gotta be perfect before I put it out there for the world to see. And I need to realize, hey no one’s gonna notice that little itty bitty spot where I made the mistake, and they’re gonna enjoy, the music regardless. And so, I’m being a little more looser now, but it’s hard. [00:30:59] Shannon Petrovich: It is hard. [00:31:00] It is hard. And the first time somebody told me to look at that, I was completely unaware of it. And then I was blown away by how harsh I was inside my own head. And so I think that’s something that people miss a lot of the time. So oftentimes it isn’t even what stresses are in our lives, it’s how we’re beating ourselves up over those stresses. [00:31:26] And if we were more self supportive of ourselves in those stress times, we could manage the stress differently. [00:31:35] Diana Winkler: Oh yeah, I’ll tell you about stress. Yeah. I lost two jobs in within the year, and I’m a good worker and I work hard and that was huge for me. My self worth. Why don’t they want me? [00:31:48] And yeah. That would be rough. It is. It’s the first time I’ve ever really been in that situation. But I’ve had to make a list of the good qualities that I have and [00:32:00] what I have to offer. And the corporations are in flux right now, and they’re reducing their workforce and trying to make a profit in 2020 and Covid. [00:32:12] And so, yeah trying, keep it in perspective. But don’t wanna turn this into a therapy session. [00:32:21] We did a whole episode on me losing my job, so I won’t go through all that again. But those those are valid things. Self-sabotage. We talked about a lot today. Was there anything that we didn’t talk about that you wanted to mention for the listeners today? [00:32:40] Shannon Petrovich: No, just to know that you’re not alone, to know that you don’t deserve to be treated that way, that you probably are blaming yourself because that’s part of what an abusive person does, is blame you for their actions and that there is a way out and you can get the [00:33:00] help that you need in order to get free. [00:33:02] Don’t fall into despair. And if you’re not feeling loved in a relationship, you’re not being loved in a relationship. So love is a verb, and I think we confused that in our culture. I just did a recent video on my YouTube channel saying that’s called Follow Your Heart is the worst advice you could give somebody in an abusive relationship. [00:33:25] And that’s the truth. A lot of people in our culture say, Well, follow your heart if you still love the person, you gotta stick it out. You gotta work on it. Just work on it some more. Just pray about it some more, in the Christian community, oftentimes. [00:33:38] And I absolutely don’t believe in divorce either. But there are situations in which you do need to get divorced from a person who is destroying you emotionally, physically and oftentimes spiritually. So you do need to take care of yourself, but recognizing that you can actually still love a person and make the rational decision [00:34:00] to leave. [00:34:01] And I think a lot of people don’t get that. We have to line up the rational facts of this relationship and how toxic it is to us and how it’s destroying us. And even if we still love the person, we can leave. [00:34:15] Diana Winkler: Wow, that’s, that is so profound. I’ve never heard anybody say that. So, I’m definitely gonna quote you that on Twitter. [00:34:23] That’s, that is definitely something to remember. Tell folks where they can get your book, and how can they get in touch with you and your resources? [00:34:37] Shannon Petrovich: They can get in touch with me on my YouTube channel therapist talks and also my website. [00:34:44] No foggy days.com or therapist talks.com will get you there too. And my website has a newsletter. I do live streams every other week. So that you can ask questions and I’ll try to answer them and and I do have other [00:35:00] resources on the website, so jump in there, get on the newsletter list and and get connected. [00:35:08] You [00:35:08] Diana Winkler: probably have referrals to therapists that are taking new clients too. [00:35:13] Shannon Petrovich: I’ll definitely try to help if somebody needs therapist, I can try to help them get connect. Yeah, [00:35:19] Diana Winkler: that’ll be really helpful. This has been really educational and great conversation. Lots of gold nuggets today. [00:35:28] I so appreciate you coming on this show and keep in touch since we’re sort of nearby and God bless you. [00:35:36] Shannon Petrovich: Thank you, Diana. I really appreciate you having me on and God bless you. [00:35:40] Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you’ll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube [00:36:00] channel links. Hope to see you next week.