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Welcome back to Part Two of Pastor John Smith’s story about his experience with church hurt and how he dealt wit it. This week we talk more about how to find a healthy church and what kind of questions to ask during your search. God does want you to be in community! Join us for an excellent conversation in Christ.
Here is the link of my guest interview on John’s podcast Open Wounds!
I’m the pastor at Maricopa Alliance Church in Maricopa, AZ. My new podcast “Open Wounds” is a journey we can all take together to learn ways to overcome church-hurt. I’m married with 2 adult children.
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email: openwounds@maricopaalliance.org
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John Smith Part Two
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer, songwriter, speaker, and domestic violence advocate, Diana Winkler. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. [00:00:25] Now, here is Diana. [00:00:33] Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. We heard part one last week With Pastor John Smith. And today we’re continuing on with his story of Church Hurt. He was church planting, ministries with bikers, a very unique ministry, but there were a lot of things that happened that caused a lot of pain [00:01:00] and, spiritual abuse. [00:01:01] so we’re going to hear the rest of his story. It’s going to get, uh, worse before it gets better. You’re just not going to believe, what he’s doing now as a pastor. Please go back to part one [00:01:16] if you have not listened to that, you will miss a lot of, background of his story. We had a lot of fun on this conversation. So I hope that you enjoy. Part two of my conversation with Pastor John Smith. I want to have a real true relationship with Jesus. And so I’m done. I don’t need a building. I don’t need a pastor. I don’t need, you know, this type of stuff. So I think we get there. I knew even though I was in that mindset, my heart knew that that wasn’t right. That, yes, I can have a relationship with Jesus outside of church, but part of what [00:02:00] Jesus wants us to do is to fellowship with the body. [00:02:03] And he wants us to be in corporate prayer and corporate praise, and he wants us to be part of a church. And what he taught me was that maybe at this point in my life, maybe I don’t need the church, but there may be someone in the church that needs me. In other words, maybe something that I can offer, maybe a spiritual gift that the Lord gave me that I can help someone in the church. [00:02:28] My wife was amazing through the whole thing. Yeah, you haven’t said anything about your wife. What was she thinking through this whole thing? Yeah, she was always, like one step ahead. The first church that, told me we weren’t allowed to pray for our friend Drew and that we weren’t tithing enough. [00:02:45] She had already stopped going. She said, I don’t feel the presence of the Lord there. She said, I know that you’re knee deep in this ministry and You want to keep going, but, I don’t feel the presence of the Lord there. And I should have listened to her. I should have left. [00:03:00] Women’s Intuition, brother. [00:03:04] And, the second was the second church where the damage really happened. Uh, she had stopped attending there too. She said, because it was strange. [00:03:13] This elder, he was pulling people aside, like people in worship and other leaders of the church. And he was pulling them aside and telling them the same thing that he told me that, I didn’t know about. But all I knew was people were leaving the church every Sunday. We would come to church. It’d be like our friends weren’t there. [00:03:34] What happened to so and so that was singing? What happened to the men’s ministry leader? What happened to these people? Where are they at? And so after I went through my experience with that elder, I started getting phone calls like, we haven’t seen you at church. What happened? I said, well, this is what happened. [00:03:53] They’re like, okay, well that’s the same thing that happened to the worship leader. That’s the same thing that happened to this [00:04:00] person. That’s it. Wow. Really? Yeah. So he was pulling people aside. And for what, I don’t know why, because, Jesus said, blessed are the peacekeepers. [00:04:10] We’re supposed to be the peacekeepers. All of us as Christians, we’re supposed to be peacekeepers. And so after this hurt, I only had one person from the church actually come visit me face to face. And he came and he said, what went down in that room was wrong. He said, I don’t know how to fix it, but what went down in that room is wrong. [00:04:31] Real friends. Yes. Yeah. He was a good man. And I said, that’s okay. I don’t need a church to have my relationship. That’s where I was at. My headspace was bad. My wife was amazing. She walked me through it. She said everything that he said is wrong. [00:04:48] It’s not true. He doesn’t know you. He doesn’t know your history. He doesn’t know, the heart you have for people. He doesn’t know that. For whatever reason, he had his mind made up already. [00:05:00] And he wanted you gone. She said, don’t think that anything he said is true. Cause that was, I took it as true. [00:05:09] That’s where the hurt came in. I believed him. I thought, I should never do ministry. I’m just going to hurt people, you know? And I started taking on everything he said to be true. And, she talked me off that ledge and we prayed about that. Thank God for, my wife, because, I was literally done with church. [00:05:31] Later, about six months went by and one of the men that left, which was a very good friend of mine. He was actually one of the assistant pastors there. He left out of the blue and he was one of the guys that, Well, why did he leave? Why did Pastor Dave leave? No one would give me an answer. And so after this all went down, he reached out to me, he said, Hey brother, I heard what you went through. [00:05:55] He said, I just want you to know that I believe that you’re a good [00:06:00] man. And I believe that you have a heart for people, not a hardened heart, but you have a heart for people. And he said, I want to plant a church. He says, I want you and Shelly to come along with us to plant a church. [00:06:11] Okay. And I said, I really got to pray about it because, I just don’t know if I want anything to do with church. But, tell me about the church and tell me what you’re thinking about. He said, my roots are with the Christian and Missionary Alliance. [00:06:23] And I’m, I said, you gotta be kidding me. Really? And so I told him my story and he shared with me his story. He was from Minnesota. I was from Pennsylvania. We both were Alliance guys through and through. And I said, Pastor Dave, if you’re going to plant a church, consider me and I’m in. We’re in 100%. Let’s do this. [00:06:45] And so we planted our second church. And, it’s still going strong. That was probably five, six years ago. Still going strong. That’s the one you’re a pastor of now. No, no. Pastor Dave’s still there. That was our second, that was the second church we [00:07:00] planted with the Alliance. [00:07:01] We’re going back about three or four years. I’m two years into this church plant. And I get a call from the district office. Hey, John, what would you think about replanting a church in Maricopa? I said, guys, I’m in the middle of a church plant. We’re like only two years. He goes, yeah, but that church is going good. [00:07:21] He said, we need someone with your stamina and your willingness to fight through what it takes to do a fresh start, to do a replant. Because this church is in bad shape and we know that you can do it. We want you to pray about it. I said, I’ll pray about it. And so I prayed and prayed and I said, Lord, one thing I cannot do. [00:07:42] is I cannot do the bivocational ministry again. If this is your calling for me, I will accept it. I’m not saying, that I will only accept it if you do this for me. But basically I said, Lord, if this is my calling, I would just ask that it be a [00:08:00] full time position so that I can minister to my church full time and I can go to school because I need to go to school. [00:08:07] And so, I prayed about it, and I called the district back and I said, this is where I’m at. It would need to be a full time position. I would, need to go to school. And, that’s my offer. [00:08:20] They called me back maybe about a week later. It said we’re in 100%. That’s great. [00:08:26] Yeah. It’s just been amazing. That was about three years ago, August, 1st, I think, yeah, will be the start of my fourth year. , Did they throw in a private jet in there with the package? I should have asked for one, right? Come on! Yeah, no, but they, offered me, very fair, salary. [00:08:48] Not what I was making in a private world, of course, right? Yeah. private sector, but they offered me something fair, something that we could, live on. It was great. I’m going to school, paying for that, and I’ll [00:09:00] be graduating here, in a couple months. So I’m super excited about that. [00:09:05] It’s just been an amazing ride. When I came to Maricopa, we had about 16 to 18 people coming on a Sunday. The church was already about 11, 12 years old. They had gone through their share of battles, but. They had 18 people after 12 years. When I came on board, about three months into it, it went from 18 to six. [00:09:24] And I’m like, Oh man, here we go again. You know, the elder was right. I’m just hurting people. I’m just, but my coach, I had a couple of coaches that they would call and they would say, listen, what you’re doing is right. What you’re doing is, separating those who want to follow the vision and those who don’t. [00:09:45] This is a natural stage for people to leave. I said, yeah, but if six more people leave, I’ll have an empty church. And so they said, no, Lord will bring more people. And they were right. [00:10:00] And, it’s just been a tremendous, exercise of faith knowing that Jesus is in control of this all. [00:10:06] It’s God’s church. It’s not ours. God will grow the church. He will bring the people. And, this past Sunday, for example, I think we had, about 48 people at church. And so going from 18 to six to 48, three years, I believe that God’s doing amazing things currently a police chaplain with the city. [00:10:27] He has me, working as a chaplain with the police department, very involved with a couple of committees with the city, for homelessness and for youth and for, our elderly folks. We support, the Hope Women’s Center here in Maricopa. We support the, the Maricopa Food Pantry. We serve with them and help them. [00:10:47] And it’s just been amazing. It’s just, beyond. what I could have ever expected. To go from a place where I’m told that I’m just [00:11:00] basically a rotten person. Not even, I don’t even know if he believed I was a Christian or not, this elder. He, tore me down to the point where, I was broken. And, and I think sometimes God works that way. [00:11:15] I think sometimes you have to be broken so that the Lord can build you back up to who you’re supposed to be. And, so here I am, three years into it. We have an amazing congregation. We have people that have just came this past week that said, I have never felt more welcome in a church before. [00:11:31] It’s just been, great. And like I said, I’m about ready to finish and graduate with school. And then I’ll, be sitting for my ordination and, it’s just been awesome. So you’re going to seminary right now. Yeah, it’s through the Alliance. It’s not necessarily seminary, but it’s called the ACLD program, but it’s basically the Alliance’s, preparation for ordination. [00:11:54] Oh, great. Yeah, it’s two years. I’ve been to ordination councils and, they throw some [00:12:00] pretty, questions at you when you’re standing up there in front of everybody. Yeah. So I have, I’ll sit in front of a board of about eight men and, I just have the Bible in my hand, but I have about 150 questions to answer. [00:12:14] It’s about a six hour process. Well, I certainly would like to, come and see you graduate. I assume you’re going to do the cap and gown and all that jazz, or? Yeah, I’m not sure. I don’t know how that works. I don’t know. It may be like an online thing, or it may, it actually might not be, I don’t know. [00:12:33] Let me know, I’ll drive down there. And, come cheer you on. You’ve, been through so much, such a long journey and to even want to go, back to school and learn more about the scriptures. So you can be a better pastor, a better Christian. We talked about my story on your show. [00:12:52] I had a lot of parallels. Definitely related to a lot of your story. Now, my story didn’t involve [00:13:00] motorcycles, but a lot of these church plants are very similar to what you described. I think, we started several churches and just, got burnt out. Had been abused and you do come to that point where it’s like, I’m done with this. [00:13:18] I don’t want to do any more ministry. I don’t know if I want to go into a church again, and it doesn’t mean you can’t stop and reconnect with the Lord and figure out, okay, what was I supposed to learn through that? And maybe it might be you pivot a ministry. Like when I married my current husband, Brian, I purposely did not marry a pastor because I didn’t want to go through all that church hurt with. [00:13:48] all the church plants that I did with my ex husband. But I have a different ministry now. I have the ministry in the podcast and the ministry in the, Mending the Sou; small groups. I have a [00:14:00] full time job and I’m a witness there at my job. And so, yeah, am I in full time ministry, quote unquote? [00:14:07] No, but I am serving the Lord with the gifts he’s given me. And, if you told me I was going to be doing this 20 years ago, I wouldn’t have believed you, but it sounds like you kind of went through the same thing. You have figured out what the Lord was trying to teach you through all those terrible circumstances. [00:14:29] You’re given another ministry finally, that is going well, and you’re able to continue. to learn. You’ve, come so far. [00:14:39] It’s unbelievable what, what God can do through you if you just make yourself available. And I think that’s where, when I was so broken, I didn’t want to be available. [00:14:52] I didn’t want to be used anymore, right? I just wanted to be left alone. I’m like, Lord, why can’t you and I [00:15:00] just have this relationship just one on one? I just didn’t want to be used. And as soon as you make yourself available and you say, you know what? [00:15:07] I’m going to trust God. I’m going to put my faith in Christ and, because his plan is better than my plan. Like when the district called and asked me if I wanted to do this fresh start in Maricopa, I said, you gotta be kidding me. Like, what? [00:15:22] Are you sure you got the right number? I think you got the wrong number. Yeah, like, the first one failed miserably, you know? [00:15:33] But it didn’t, and that’s another thing that God showed me, that through the first church plant, even though it was only two and a half years and I had burned out bad, there were so many people. that never stepped foot in a church, but they felt comfortable coming to our church because it was full of broken people just like them. [00:15:52] And there were people there that were just covered in tattoos and maybe had drinking issues, addictions and [00:16:00] things, but they were giving their heart to Christ. And it was such a lesson to me. That, you don’t have to get yourself into a, some sort of perfect position before you ask Christ into your heart. [00:16:15] He’s ready for you now and he’ll work on you afterwards. Anybody in any situation in any walk of life, Jesus is standing there with the gift of salvation in his hand. And he’s just saying, take it. Take it and then we’ll work together to make some changes. He showed me so many, lessons. [00:16:36] I thought I was a failure because the first church failed. I thought I was never supposed to be in ministry because of what this man told me. The Lord just said, he just kind of laughed that off and said, dude, I got you. I got you. Just make yourself available. And so here we are. Amen. [00:16:54] I just loved hearing your story. It’s incredible. I know that [00:17:00] God’s got so much in store for you ahead. You’re always welcome to come on the show and, talk about any other topic you’d like to, share with the listeners. You have anything for, our listeners, some advice for them to end with here ? [00:17:16] Yeah, I would just say, like I said, make yourself available. God will use you. You don’t have to be, highly educated. You don’t need all these degrees. Make yourself available, study the word, and spend time praying and fasting, and God will use you in mighty ways, and don’t listen to people. [00:17:36] That because people don’t know your heart, Jesus knows your heart. He’s the only person that knows your heart. Don’t listen to what people say. And then I would just say that if you have gone through some sort of traumatic experience at a church. Just stop and realize, that’s that church. They may never [00:18:00] see the damage they’ve done. [00:18:02] They may never come to you, [00:18:04] ask for forgiveness. They may never repent. They may continue to do what they do and hurt people, without seeing it. And regardless of where you live, There’s a church out there that God wants you to be part of. And so don’t give up. Don’t give up on the church. [00:18:21] Don’t give up on Jesus. That’s like the big thing. Don’t walk away from your faith because of people. Oh, that’s gold. That is so true. There are healthy churches out there that, will love you like Jesus did. Yes, don’t give up. Keep searching and praying for the right, community to join. [00:18:44] So when you talked about, Hey, I don’t want to be around Christians anymore. I don’t need the church. Well, we’re going to be spending eternity with them. So. That’s right. Diana, the great thing about the age that we live in today is that every [00:19:00] church should have a website and on that website, they should have their statement of faith and their core values and all that type of stuff. [00:19:08] And so spend time if you’ve been hurt or if you’re just seeking or searching for a church, Just do some research. Go onto the website and say, do their core values, does their statement of faith line up with where I’m at? Before you ever step into the church, you should know about that church. [00:19:28] You should have a good idea. There should be information about the pastors and the leaders. And if none of that information is available, or if it’s buried somewhere, like 18 clicks away from the homepage, then that’s a red flag. Because typically people hide things that they’re not proud of. [00:19:47] And so if their statement of faith isn’t right there on the front page or somewhere one click away, then, that’s a red flag to me. [00:19:55] If you do visit a church, rather than running up to the pastor to talk to him or try to get [00:20:00] information from him, talk to the other people that attend the church. Oh, good tip. Just ask them, how come you attend here? [00:20:06] What do you like about this church? What does your church do? Are you active in the community? Because they’re going to tell you the truth. That’s right. That is true. My pastor has been on the podcast twice and, we talked about how to find a healthy church. [00:20:21] And, our, our services are online, like many churches out there. So that’s also something to keep in mind. Watch, their services. Our Bible study groups are online too. So that’s very common now after the pandemic to you can check out a church without stepping foot in there. So yeah. Yeah, great tips. [00:20:42] Tell folks how they can, get a hold of you. They want to touch base with you, where your church is at, if any of y’all are in Maricopa. Yeah, so, uh, we meet at Saddleback Elementary School on Sunday mornings at 10 [00:21:00] o’clock. It’s on Porter Road, Maricopa. Uh, you can reach me directly at my email, which is john @ maricopaalliance. [00:21:08] org. That’s the best way to reach me. But if you go to MaricopaAlliance. org, the phone number, the church phone number is on the website as well. And I will say this, but if you call the church number, it will ring to my phone and I will answer it. [00:21:24] Yeah, I, don’t dodge, we don’t have banking hours, I don’t, uh, I don’t have a secretary. I don’t have an answering machine. The only time I probably wouldn’t answer the phone is if I was in the shower or if I didn’t have service. But other than that, I will answer the phone. [00:21:41] I’ll be happy to talk with you. And I believe that’s the way it should be. Yeah, I think, you know, I think that’s one of the reasons why people are kind of turned off by church too, because they only answer the phone between 10 a. m. and 2 p. m. Monday through Thursday. And that’s typically not when people need [00:22:00] help. [00:22:00] We should be available. And I say that to, if there’s any other pastors that are listening to this or watching this, pick up your phone. [00:22:07] It’s your job. As a pastor, you’re supposed to be a shepherd of the sheep. When the shepherds took the sheep out into the fields, they didn’t leave the sheep alone for 18 hours a day. They were there 24 hours a day for their sheep. And their number one job was to protect that herd from the wolves. [00:22:25] And if any sheep got loose, they were to go find them and return them and bring them back. You need to be available. So everybody call John at two o’clock in the morning. He’ll pick up the phone. I will. So your Open Wounds podcast, you just got that started. [00:22:44] Where can they hear your podcast? Just about anywhere podcasts can be heard. Apple podcasts and Spotify. You can also find it at, maricopaalliance. org. If you click open wounds and you can definitely catch us on YouTube as well. [00:23:00] So all the listeners, please share this, episode so we can get, open wounds, some exposure, just starting out, a kindred spirit here. [00:23:10] Share, the podcast with somebody that would need to hear this content. I appreciate your time and all the wonderful advice you’ve given being so transparent in your story. God bless you and keep in touch. Okay? I definitely will, Diana. And thank you. Thank you for your time. And thanks for having me on. [00:23:32] Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You can connect with us at DSWMinistries. org, where you’ll find our blog along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next [00:24:00] week!